|
|
Post by 101ABN on Jan 18, 2014 6:37:05 GMT -8
Two events last week — one an announcement by the Marine Corps, the other speeches at the inauguration of New York City's new mayor — illustrated vividly how President Obama and his media cohort have so narrowed the boundaries of political speech that we no longer believe we can challenge outright lies. Among the lies we’ve become inured to is that women can perform every job a man can, including those of combat infantryman and special operators. We’ve also been told the lie that the injection of women into combat arms has no effect on the warrior culture. The liberals insist that the culture isn’t of any value to combat effectiveness regardless of what the warriors themselves say. spectator.org/articles/57340/so-many-intolerable-lies |
|
|
|
Post by warrior1972 on Jan 18, 2014 16:13:23 GMT -8
Women in the Israeli Defense Forces are female soldiers who serve in the Israel Defense Forces. Israel is the only country in the world with a mandatory military service requirement for women.[1][2][3] Women have taken part in Israel’s military before and since the founding of the state in 1948,[4][5] with women currently comprising 33% of all IDF soldiers and 51% of its officers,[6] fulfilling various roles within the Ground, Navy and Air Forces. The 2000 Equality amendment to the Military Service law states that "The right of women to serve in any role in the IDF is equal to the right of men."[3] As of now, 88% to 92%[7] of all roles in the IDF are open to female candidates, while women can be found in 69% of all positions.[1] Formerly women conscripts served in the Women's Army Corps, commonly known by its Hebrew acronym, Chen. After a five-week period of basic training they served as clerks, drivers, welfare workers, nurses, radio operators, flight controllers, ordnance personnel, and course instructors.[8] Before the establishment of the state, women served in combat roles in the militias that would become the Israel Defense Forces.[5] The rate of women who took part in combat organizations stood at 20%.[3] At the years before the establishment of the IDF, military service for women existed in the lines of the Shomer and Hagana organizations. The Hagana stated in its law that its lines were open to: "Every Jewish male or female, who is prepared and trained to fulfill the obligation of national defense." Most served as medics, communications specialists, and weaponeers. During WWII approximately 4,000 females volunteered for service in the British assisting forces. One of them, Alice Hatzor-Hirsch, was about 16 when she joined the Hagana. In 1942, she joined the British army as a driver. "We were more connected than the others," she recalled years later. "A girl becoming a driver in the British army was considered the height of boldness at the time."[9] In Tel-Aviv of the 1940s, a battalion was established in which women filled positions in security, weapons transport, and manned anti-aircraft posts. During the winter of 1948, women joined the combat soldiers of the Palmach, who traveled from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem with their weapons concealed in their clothes. The Palmach arm (thirty percent of which were females) trained nine female platoon commanders, and other female squad commanders.[9] On 26 May 1948, Prime Minister David Ben Gurion officially set up the IDF as the country's army. On 18 August 1948, mandatory conscription for single and married women without children (born between the years 1920-1930) began.[10] Women served in many positions including nurses, signal operators, drivers, clerks, cooks and more. The Women's Corps, under which all women served, was responsible for taking care of women soldiers' needs and for their training and integration into different IDF units. The Women's Corps also sent young women soldiers to be teachers in developing areas and immigrant neighborhoods of Israel.[10] Apart from the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, when manpower shortages saw many Palmach and IDF women taking active part in land battles, women were historically barred from battle in the IDF, serving in a variety of technical and administrative support roles. Soon after the establishment of the IDF, the removal of all women from front-line positions was decreed. Decisive for this decision was the very real possibility of falling into enemy hands as prisoners of war. It was fair and equitable, it was argued, to demand from women equal sacrifice and risk; but the risk for women prisoners of rape and sexual molestation was infinitely greater than the same risk for men.[11] A majority of women serving in the IDF then were secretaries. The rest served primarily as instructors, nurses, clerks and telephone operators. A few women flew transport missions in the 1950s and a few women were accepted into flight training in the 1970s, but did not complete the program before it was closed to women.[2] “ The army is the supreme symbol of duty and as long as women are not equal to men in performing this duty, they have not yet obtained true equality. If the daughters of Israel are absent from the army, then the character of the Yishuv will be distorted. ”
—David Ben-Gurion, first Israeli Prime Minister[10]
Yael Rom, the first female pilot trained by the Israeli Air Force, earned her wings in 1951.[12] Hava Inbar, a lawyer, was appointed the judge of the military court in Haifa in September 1969, thus becoming the first female military judge in the world. "I do not know if I want to be a military judge my whole life," she said in an interview, "but I am glad that I was appointed; it proves that the IDF leaves almost all doors open for its female soldiers."[9] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_Israel_Defense_Forces |
|
|
|
Post by tankcommander on Jan 19, 2014 10:20:30 GMT -8
I'd love to sit back, and watch a couple of girls wrestling around in the mud with a thrown track, or unloading a few truck loads of main gun ammo at 120 lbs. a box..... The Marine's pull up test pretty much shows how that would work out. Another problem that seems to be ignored, or pretended wouldn't happen, is the inevitable romantic relationships that would develop, and the drama they would bring to combat units that by necessity must be tight knit. Why are some people in such a hurry to have their daughters coming home in body bags? This whole women in combat idea reminds me of a line in the Dirty Harry movie, the Enforcer.  "Well, that's all very stylish..... But out there she's got a partner, and if she gets blown away odds are he gets blown away too, and that's a helluva' price to pay for being stylish."  |
|
|
|
Post by prospero on Jan 19, 2014 11:36:50 GMT -8
Equality only exists on paper.............
Equal opportunity only exists in slogans and speeches............
Things keep on like they have been recently and there won't be anyone in the military but gay men and pissed off women...........
|
|
|
|
Post by warrior1972 on Jan 22, 2014 4:53:22 GMT -8
Equality only exists on paper............. Equal opportunity only exists in slogans and speeches............ Things keep on like they have been recently and there won't be anyone in the military but gay men and pissed off women...........
"Equality" is NOT the issue. EQUAL OPPORTUNITY is the issue. There ARE women who can outperform MOST men when it comes to a police officer's (and a soldier's) duties, and if they wish to sign up, they should be given that opportunity. I've KNOWN women who could open up a can of whup-ass on most men physically. Its not an old-ass, (1976), inaccurate-as-hell, graphically distorted Dirty Harry movie, portraying a conservative Hollywood point of view (yes, conservatives DO exist in Hollywood) in San Francisco, which is unquestionably the most liberal city in the United States-(and they don't portray San Francisco very accurately, either.) and portraying women as being totally incompetent, scatter-brained and downright ditzy.
Female police officers have been on patrol in most major cities in the United States for DECADES, (There aren't many of them, but they ARE there). and the movie is DECADES old. Hell, it was inaccurate THEN. Women have long since unquestionably proven that they CAN perform the duties required of them as police officers. THEY ARE DOING IT RIGHT NOW. Bottom line: If women can do the job, in the military or on a police force, you need to give them the opportunity. If they can't do the job, the opportunity was provided, and we will be moving on. |
|
|
|
Post by 101ABN on Jan 22, 2014 7:14:49 GMT -8
We aren't talking about police officers here.
The purpose of the military is to kill the enemy and break his toys, not to be a crucible for
egalitarian social engineering.
Women damned well don't belong in the infantry.
|
|
|
|
Post by warrior1972 on Jan 22, 2014 15:38:02 GMT -8
We aren't talking about police officers here. The purpose of the military is to kill the enemy and break his toys, not to be a crucible for egalitarian social engineering. Women damned well don't belong in the infantry. "The purpose of the military is to kill the enemy and break his toys, not to be a crucible for egalitarian social engineering. The purpose of the military is to kill the enemy and break his toys, not to be a crucible for egalitarian social engineering. Women damned well don't belong in the infantry." According to who and what?
The American Spectator?
Do the WOMEN get to say anything about whether or not they should have the option?
Did you read the article about the Israeli Army I posted?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_Israel_Defense_Forces
How about this one, regarding women in the United States Army?
www.army.mil/women/newera.html
If women in the United States want to be in the infantry, and they are qualified to be in the infantry, why SHOULDN'T they be in the infantry?
Let them try to qualify under the original standards. And if they can't, that's the end of it.
Simple as that.
By the way, HERE IS WHAT I SAID ORIGINALLY:
"If women can do the job, in the military or on a police force, you need to give them the opportunity. If they can't do the job, the opportunity was provided, and we will be moving on."
Did you read THAT? |
|
|
|
Post by 101ABN on Jan 22, 2014 19:00:26 GMT -8
"Do the WOMEN get to say anything about whether or not they should have the option?"
Hell no.
Let them try to qualify under the ORIGINAL STANDARDS. And if they can't, that's the end of it.
Well they can't.
The standards for everything have been lowered to accommodate them.
They add NOTHING to the combat effectiveness of an infantry unit. Nothing.
|
|
|
|
Post by warrior1972 on Jan 22, 2014 19:05:25 GMT -8
"Do the WOMEN get to say anything about whether or not they should have the option?" Hell no. So American citizens don't get any say at all regarding an issue that directly concerns them, and whether or not they get to serve their country? THEY GET NO INPUT AT ALL?
Heh.
No surprise. no surprise at all. Let them try to qualify under the ORIGINAL STANDARDS. And if they can't, that's the end of it. Well they can't. Well, they should have the goddamned right to TRY. You don't just SAY someone can't qualify.
The standards for everything have been lowered to accommodate them. I am saying they SHOULDN'T be. That's the THIRD TIME I've SAID it. They add NOTHING to the combat effectiveness of an infantry unit. Nothing.
Read the article regarding the Israeli Army. You just might learn something. I did. That's why I posted it. |
|
|
|
Post by 101ABN on Jan 22, 2014 19:44:09 GMT -8
"So American citizens don't get any say at all regarding an issue that directly concerns them, and whether or not they get to serve their country? THEY GET NO INPUT AT ALL? " You're doing it again. I never said they couldn't serve. I said they have no business in the infantry. Why? Because they add nothing to the combat effectiveness of an infantry unit and, in fact, DEGRADE it. If you think they add something, PROVE IT. Sorry if the truth offends you but I'll trust my experience over Wikipedia and your liberal social engineers. |
|
|
|
Post by warrior1972 on Jan 23, 2014 3:43:18 GMT -8
"So American citizens don't get any say at all regarding an issue that directly concerns them, and whether or not they get to serve their country? THEY GET NO INPUT AT ALL? " You're doing it again. I never said they couldn't serve. I said they have no business in the infantry. YOU said that women don't get any say at all in whether or not they serve in the infantry. Why? Because they add nothing to the combat effectiveness of an infantry unit and, in fact, DEGRADE it. PROVE IT. Prove that women who have passed the same requirements as men for an infantry unit in the United States degrade it's effectiveness. If you think they add something, PROVE IT. And YOU'RE "doing it again." I didn't SAY that they add OR detract from the combat effectiveness of an infantry unit. YOU'RE the one saying it. Why should I prove something that YOU have said?
"Sorry if the truth offends you but I'll trust my experience over Wikipedia and your liberal social engineers." The truth is that American women have never SERVED in combat conditions, REGARDLESS of WHAT qualifications there are. How much experience do you have serving with women who have satisfied the same requirements that you have to serve in an infantry unit?
You don't want to talk about the subject, don't want to learn anything, and have nothing to offer but one article from a highly partisan source with insults such as "liberal idiots" and your own insults about "liberal social engineers", and your own service with MALE infantrymen (which I completely and totally respect, by the way.) But I'll bet a mountain of gold against a barrel of batshit that you haven't even READ what I've posted.
This conversation, if you want to call it that, is a waste of time, and is therefore over. Take the last word. I won't be reading it. |
|
|
|
Post by Sailor on Jan 23, 2014 3:54:05 GMT -8
There are some jobs in the military that women excel at, aircraft pilot being one. And there are some that most women do not have the physical capability to handle, most women don't have the upper body strength that men have. Most don't meet the physical necessities required of infantrymen as 101 was saying. And of those who do, do they also have the stamina required for hours of operating in combat with full loadouts after a couple of days with little or no sleep and little food? Most don't.
The Israelis found that women in combat can be a serious liability, especially when they become casualties. Men are wired at the most basic animal level to protect the female (whether they are mated or not.) A woman gets wounded, men instinctually are more likely to lose their situational awareness and move to her than they would be with another male.
That last got a lot of Israelis killed in firefights as they broke fire discipline and reacted as their "gut" required and not according to their training.
|
|
|
|
Post by warrior1972 on Jan 23, 2014 4:05:05 GMT -8
There are some jobs in the military that women excel at, aircraft pilot being one. And there are some that most women do not have the physical capability to handle, most women don't have the upper body strength that men have. Most don't meet the physical necessities required of infantrymen as 101 was saying. And of those who do, do they also have the stamina required for hours of operating in combat with full loadouts after a couple of days with little or no sleep and little food? Most don't. The Israelis found that women in combat can be a serious liability, especially when they become casualties. Men are wired at the most basic animal level to protect the female (whether they are mated or not.) A woman gets wounded, men instinctually are more likely to lose their situational awareness and move to her than they would be with another male. That last got a lot of Israelis killed in firefights as they broke fire discipline and reacted as their "gut" required and not according to their training. I READ the article. HOWEVER.... "Israel is the only nation to conscript women and assign some of them to infantry combatant service which places them directly in the line of enemy fire.[22] Civilian pilot and aeronautical engineer Alice Miller successfully petitioned the High Court of Justice to take the Israeli Air Force pilot training exams, after being rejected on grounds of gender. Though president Ezer Weizman, a former IAF commander, told Miller that she would be better off staying home and darning socks, the court eventually ruled in 1996 that the IAF could not exclude qualified women from pilot training. Even though Miller would not pass the exams, the ruling was a watershed, opening doors for women in new IDF roles. Female legislators took advantage of the momentum to draft a bill allowing women to volunteer for any position, if they could qualify.[23] In 2000, the Equality amendment to the Military Service law stated that the right of women to serve in any role in the IDF is equal to the right of men.[24] Women have taken part in Israel’s military before and since the founding of the state in 1948.[25] Women started to enter combat support and light combat roles in a few areas, including the Artillery Corps, infantry units and armored divisions. A few platoons named Karakal were formed for men and women to serve together in light infantry. By 2000 Karakal became a full-fledged battalion. Many women would also join the Border Police.[23] In June 2011, Maj. General Orna Barbivai became the first female major general in the IDF, replacing head of the directorate Maj. General Avi Zamir. Barbivai stated, "I am proud to be the first woman to become a major general and to be part of an organization in which equality is a central principle. 90 percent of jobs in the IDF are open to women and I am sure that there are other women who will continue to break down barriers."[26][27] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces#WomenAND... "Clause 16A of the military service law requires that female combat soldiers serve 3 years of mandatory service, and continue in reserves service up to age 38, even if they become mothers. These are essentially identical to the terms of service for male combat soldiers.[1] Each year, 1,500 female combat soldiers are drafted into the IDF.[4] Women currently make up 3% of the IDF's combat soldiers.[6] In 2014, the IDF appointed Major Oshrat Bacher as Israel’s first female combat battalion commander.[18] A combat option for women is the Caracal Battalion, which is a highly operational force that is made up of 70 percent female soldiers.[3] The unit undergoes training like any combat infantry.[4] The IDF commando K9 unit, Oketz, also drafts females as elite combat soldiers.[6] The Women's Corps was dismantled in 2000, so that female soldiers for the first time would fall under the authority of individual units based on jobs and not on gender. They would wear the insignia of their units instead of the insignia of the Women's Corps.[2] The position of Women's Affairs Advisor to the Chief of Staff was created in 2001. The female officer holding the position is in charge of ensuring more opportunities and a suitable environment for female soldiers, as well as better enhancing their skills. The mission of the advisor is described by the IDF as "empowering women, the IDF and Israeli society by promoting conditions that allow for the optimal use of the capabilities of women serving in the IDF; promoting equal opportunities for women during their military service; and assimilating women into military leadership positions."[6] Service exemptions[edit] Sixty–five percent of Israeli girls serve in the army, 25 percent opt out on religious grounds, the remainder are exempted for physical, emotional or marital reasons.[23] A law passed in 1978 made exemptions for women on religious grounds automatic upon the signing of a simple declaration attesting to the observance of orthodox religious practices. This legislation raised considerable controversy, and IDF officials feared that the exemption could be abused by any nonreligious woman who did not wish to serve and thus further exacerbate the already strained personnel resources of the IDF. Women exempted on religious grounds were legally obliged to fulfill a period of alternative service doing social or educational work assigned to them. In practice, however, women performed such service only on a voluntary basis.[8] 2007 Segev Committee report[edit]" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_Israel_Defense_Forces However, This is a conscript force, whereas ours is is a Volunteer force. The dynamics are different. THAT'S what I learned. But the Israelis went farther with it than anybody other than perhaps the Soviets, and STILL have integrated women further into military service than practically anybody else today. THEY KNOW, and they have PROVEN it....FOR YEARS. THAT'S what THEIR standards are based on. www.idfinfo.co.il/Service_Options_For_Women.php?cat=a7THAT'S why I posted the article. AND THAT'S WHY I KNOW 101 NEVER READ IT! If he had, he'd kmow what it says.
|
|
|
|
Post by 101ABN on Jan 23, 2014 7:16:32 GMT -8
"The truth is that American women have never SERVED in combat conditions, REGARDLESS of WHAT qualifications there are."
There's a reason for that.
Unfortunately, you aren't capable of understanding it and prefer to believe the intolerable lie that is the subject of this thread.
"But I'll bet a mountain of gold against a barrel of batshit that you haven't even READ what I've posted."
I'll take the gold, you get the batshit. Reading it doesn't mean I have to agree with it.
"This conversation, if you want to call it that, is a waste of time, and is therefore over."
Suits me.
|
|
|
|
Post by warrior1972 on Jan 23, 2014 12:41:24 GMT -8
"The truth is that American women have never SERVED in combat conditions, REGARDLESS of WHAT qualifications there are." There's a reason for that. Unfortunately, you aren't capable of understanding it and prefer to believe the intolerable lie that is the subject of this thread." Oh, bullshit. I said right out of the fucking gate that I wanted the Army and Marine Corps standards in place, unchanged, and for women to qualify under those standards. If they cannot qualify under those standards, THERE IS NO ROOM FOR CONVERSTATION AS FAR AS I AM FUCKING CONCERNED. YOU GOT THAT?
No, if my opinion doesn't follow the Democratic Party line, I suppose you probably DON'T. YOU'RE the one that doesn't "understand" if it doesn't follow the fucking script.
If stupidity like an intravenous diet of the American Spectator and other propaganda organs of the Republican Party is the only diet you are ingesting these days, YOU'RE the one who is "incapable of understanding" anything that isn't to the Right of Rush Limbaugh. I get sick of the horseshit about "liberal idiots", "liberals this, liberals that", and anything that supports a right wing artisan opinion being hailed as the Goddamned Gospel truth around here, while anything that even begins to encourage a discussion of another opinion is the work of "liberal idiots".
I simply want a discussion about the possibility of women in the infantry based upon the REAL standards. That seems to be too much to ask of you. [/b][/i]"But I'll bet a mountain of gold against a barrel of batshit that you haven't even READ what I've posted." I'll take the gold, you get the batshit. Reading it doesn't mean I have to agree with it. You won't even fucking DISCUSS It because it doesn't come from your conservative Republican approved sources.
You've got fool's gold.
And if you read the article you didn't even demonstrate the ability to discuss it, let alone refute it.
Nobody's asking you to agree with anything. "This conversation, if you want to call it that, is a waste of time, and is therefore over." Suits me. GOOD. [/quote] |
|
