Old enough to die, not old enough to drink?

[dustdevil28]

This is called babysitting folks who can't follow orders.

You continue to go to this. Why? The military already babysits folks according to the logic you've used so why don't we let the babies have their bottle?

The military is about discipline and following orders. If folks who haven't reached the legal drinking age think that the rules shouldn't apply to them - and God only knows there is no shortage of 19 year olds who think the rules were written for the other guy - then maybe it would be better all round if they found a job flipping burgers.

Many drinkers are able to show up to work and put in their day worth of work. Their is no shortage of underage kids among them either.

Now you can say the military is about discipline and remind us of words such as "honor, courage, and commitment." All these things are true, but that does not change the fact that a great portion of the underage in today's military drink on a somewhat regular basis. These guys go out to a party in town and have a few beers and try to go home. Not a great plan but it always seems better than most other options.

Imagine a option of drinking on base though. Base security is usually pretty strict and wouldn't put up with much crap. Anybody leaving the bar in a car would most likly be tailed and most of the other drinkers would probably find themselves a short walk away from their barracks to sleep the night off.

Why would this situation provide such a increased danger?

Here's where the age difference comes in. We watched friends get drunk and killed themselves in drunk driving accidents when we were that age. Then when we got older, we watched our younger siblings' friends get drunk and kill themselves in car accidents. Then we got families and watched friends and maybe their babies get killed when some teenager and his friends, drunk , slammed into their vehicles and destroyed and crippled really good folks. Then comes the day when we have to let our own kids start driving knowing that even if we have taught them well, their friends could easily be the ones who get drunk and slam into their cars, crippling or killing them. That's an awful lot of bodies.

No disrespect meant Lor. But how many of the teenagers you mention were in the military? How many had just left a bar? Has the law really made that much of a difference?

All of this - and you think these guys would NOT drink and drive. Guess what? 19 and you think you're frigging invincible. One of the local kids who had been in the fire department since he was 16 got bored only the way 20 year olds get bored had a few drinks - and totaled his car. They pulled him out alive. I saw him right after and on again , off again for years after. He was never quite right. He never got his health back. This kid could have done anything. He was valued by his friends and admired by those older than he was. But he thought it couldn't happen to him.

I'm not only trusting the 19 year olds here Lor. I'm also trusting the policies already in place to deter a 19 year old from driving. The Shore patrol will be on their walk abouts looking for this very thing like they currently do. The base security will drive around waiting for some idiot to do this so they can revoke their base driving privleges. I find this situation more likly to keep 19 year olds off the road than the current situation.

Those laws came into being for a reason. There are plenty of ways to get around them if all you are talking about is a couple of beers with friends. But give an exception to a 19 year old because he's wearing a uniform? Why not just give him a pistol with one round in it and tell him to go play Russian roulette?

Over at THC you mentioned that I had wised up about drinking more from maturing than actual experience with alcohol. I can't see what a great difference it would've made if I started drinking at 18 or 21. The point is is how can you make judgement on your own drinking ability if you've never drank?

As a 18 year old kid I was only interested in getting drunk. Now I just want to enjoy myself and be able to walk at the same time so I pace myself while I drink. I couldn't do this if I'd waited until I was 21.

[tits]

Many drinkers are able to show up to work and put in their day worth of work. Their is no shortage of underage kids among them either.

So true, but for one young 18 year old on dogwatch at Checkpoint Delta in Dec 1971, the SgtMjr did not think it was funny.

For most of life I worked oil-field and heavy industry construction. I was a field engineer supervising the installation of refractories in everything from CATCRACKER towers to Blast Furnaces and Aluminum Reduction Furnaces. I worked everywhere from PoHang ROK to Kitamit BC and the TCPL in the Northwest Territories and down to Caracas Venezula. One thing for sure, it did not make any difference if the crew were American rednecks, Korean, Jewish, barefoot Venezulian, or hard northern Canadians. Most of the crew would often drank the toils of the day away after hours. Seldom did any of the men not show up and work hard, no matter how much uzo.

Good post and discussion guys.

[LorSpi]

As to number of teenagers in the military dying in car accidents - plenty. I grew up by Patuxent Naval Air Station when Lexington Park was nothing but bars and gas stations. I wasn't even in high school when I cousin and explored the site of a car accident that killed a teenage sailor. The roads would dip and turn slightly everywhere there was a small run or stream. Lots of them. And sites of regular single deadly accidents. Drunk sailors, unknown roads. I lost a high school friend in the Air Force who was stationed in England. A few drinks (he was not the partying type), driving on the other side of the road, swerved to avoid a dog. Dead. 19 I think. Maybe 20.

But living next to a base, the worst stories were the civilians killed by drunk kids away from home for the first time. Fathers, mothers, children. Now no doubt it was hard for the families of the sailors who got themselves killed. But let me tell you, the sheer number of locals killed by drunk military is part of the story rarely covered except by the small town papers.

You think there wasn't SP working there? The weekends they were everywhere. But then - so were the parties. And if you think bases are anymore secure well then maybe when you spend a little more time living on base, you might understand this look on my face. I know what we were able to pull off in high school.

Now - I don't really object to a beer or two. I went to the University of Maryland when you could cross the District line and buy wine and beer. And there were enough grad students as friends when I was an undergrad that there was never a problem. I think you should be able to do the same quite frankly.

Drunks are drunks. I've worked with them. They are not able to put in a full day's work. They just think so.

If a 19 year old in the military who is pissing away his time in the boondocks of Oklahoma is allowed to drink, then why not the 19 year old professional firefighter or EMT who is actually busting hump for a living, saving lives? That logic doesn't fly.

You're in the military, you play by the rules. There is no way that anyone is going to start making exceptions. Too many 18, 19 and 20 year olds are in the military because they cannot cut it civilian life. Don't sell the advertising here.

If you want to legalize drinking , then legalize drinking. God knows there's plenty of opportunity in other countries. But in the US - the law is there. I grew up in a 21 years drinking age limit. The problem with the adult argument - there is plenty of data showing that states who had the 18 year limit for beer also had a serious death rate for that age group. Raise the limit and those deaths drop significantly. As Retire noted - then the highest risk group goes to the 21-26 year old. After 26, your insurance rates drop.

Having a special security apparatus for underage drinkers on base is babysitting. Would you accept the underagers be required to wear special colored armbands so that the MPs could spot and track them more easily?

It still comes down to the willingness to obey the laws of the land.

[dustdevil28]

lorspi said:

As to number of teenagers in the military dying in car accidents - plenty. I grew up by Patuxent Naval Air Station when Lexington Park was nothing but bars and gas stations. I wasn't even in high school when I cousin and explored the site of a car accident that killed a teenage sailor. The roads would dip and turn slightly everywhere there was a small run or stream. Lots of them. And sites of regular single deadly accidents. Drunk sailors, unknown roads. I lost a high school friend in the Air Force who was stationed in England. A few drinks (he was not the partying type), driving on the other side of the road, swerved to avoid a dog. Dead. 19 I think. Maybe 20.

I figure this was no later than sometime in the 60's. Things have changed in many ways Lor. Many Sailor's and Soilder's get counciled on alcohol abuse when they check into their commands and receive follow up training about once every six mounths. Their should also be a "Drug Alcohol Program Advisor" (DAPA) who usually asseses a persons state of addiction and advises on what measures should be taken if it is becoming a problem.

Also, while some may get away with driving, their chances of getting caught are a whole lot better trying to leave a bar on base.

You think there wasn't SP working there? The weekends they were everywhere. But then - so were the parties. And if you think bases are anymore secure well then maybe when you spend a little more time living on base, you might understand this look on my face. I know what we were able to pull off in high school.

What were the punishments like back then? Today many are restricted for a 45 day period where they will muster and undergo different uniform inspections and also will spend time keeping the base clean. For serious offenses they face some jail time restricted to bread and water, restriction from any consumption of alcohol, and of course separation from the military.

Now - I don't really object to a beer or two. I went to the University of Maryland when you could cross the District line and buy wine and beer. And there were enough grad students as friends when I was an undergrad that there was never a problem. I think you should be able to do the same quite frankly.

Glad to see we agree on this. Course the problem is still how to effectivly monitor drinking and at what point are you "babysitting" supposed adults.

Drunks are drunks. I've worked with them. They are not able to put in a full day's work. They just think so.

Pardon me. What I should have said was moderate drinkers can put in a full days work. Somthing like 3 or 4 beers the night before doesn't have much effect on a persons work the following day.

If a 19 year old in the military who is pissing away his time in the boondocks of Oklahoma is allowed to drink, then why not the 19 year old professional firefighter or EMT who is actually busting hump for a living, saving lives? That logic doesn't fly.

Maybe they're next if this plan works out. The problem with these 19 year olds is there is no shore patrol for them. Plus the fact that 19 year olds in the military represent a somewhat small portion of underage drinkers. If we can show a sustaned or even better accident rate than maybe something can be worked out for the rest.

Having a special security apparatus for underage drinkers on base is babysitting. Would you accept the underagers be required to wear special colored armbands so that the MPs could spot and track them more easily?

Their is already a special security apparatus. You can call it babysitting all you want that doesn't mean they aren't needed whether or not we allow underage adults to drink.

It still comes down to the willingness to obey the laws of the land.

Yes it does.