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Post by cataracts on Jul 10, 2007 21:36:06 GMT -8
Mario,
Dawkins, Hitchens, and Harris have no perceptible influence on our society. They are the results of our societies beliefs and attitudes, not the other way around. I don't believe for a second that the Muslims have anything to do with the religious attitudes of our country. If the fight grows deeper and we find ourselves closer to the war with the Muslims, our traditional religious beliefs will grow stronger. It always does in wartime.
I wonder why the Evangelicals are taking all the heat. They are not that large of a group. They are believed to be more influential than they really are.
By the way FF, you're probably correct that no one has ever killed in the name of atheism. However it just so happens that Red China is an atheistic country. (300 million abortions). The USSR was an atheistic country (over 100 million abortions and possibly as many as 50 million killed directly by orders of Stalin, who was an atheist.). In our country the godless Roe v. Wade is responsible for as much as 50 million abortions. In all the years that I have read about Planned Parrenthood, not once do they talk about religion, morals, or what good they can do. It's just kill, kill, kill. They are not representing themselves as atheists, but they are in reality atheists.
Dawkins is such a joke. He has a website that talks about how good his book is. He put the site together himself. Wouldn't you know that guy really knows how to pat himself on the back.
This generation is going to die and be replaced by another and then another after that. God always has the last say so. He'll judge your soul and then you will go to a place, that you have chosen, for eternity. This is the teachings of 2000 years of Christianity. A Dawkins, a Harris, of a Hitchens won't change my mind.
Cataracts
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Post by FightingFalcon on Jul 11, 2007 4:02:46 GMT -8
How do we know these people weren't atheists who read Dawkins book and are just pretending to have been "converted"? Come on. No sane person should read a book and allow that one book to change their entire outlook on an issue. Reading several books on an issue, yes. It's like these morons who watch a Michael Moore film and come away with a sense of enlightenment. Yeah, right. No one becomes an Atheist overnight. It's a long process that requires extensive soul-searching and reading. As you can see in those comments, most people were edging toward Atheism but Dawkins gave them the courage to fully embrace it. It's very hard for someone to reject something that they were told their entire life - especially as a child. Even after I rejected most of Christianity and other Theistic religions, I thought I'd at least remain a Deist for the rest of my life. But Ayn Rand and Dawkins taught me how foolish an idea like that is and finally gave me the courage to admit that I'm an Atheist. Something I never thought I'd say. I would be willing to bet that very few, if any, hard-core religious people pick up a book like Dawkins' and automatically become an Atheist. Rather, its people who already have doubts that are expanded by Dawkins until the doubts outweigh the faith. One of my friends is almost on the same exact path that I am. She was shocked when I told her that I'm an Atheist (she's was a non-denom Christian) but then she told me this past winter that she hated organized religion and had some doubts about god too. I gave her Dawkins' book and she's now a strong Agnostic but I expect her to be an Atheist soon. |
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Post by FightingFalcon on Jul 11, 2007 4:09:25 GMT -8
"Read Washington's Farewell Address. The Constitution was never intended to preclude religion from the public arena. You of all people should know that."
How about I post our treaty with Tripoli, in which John Adams states that we are, in no way, a Christian nation? We can go back and forth all day with Founding Father quotes if you really want to. Or the one where TJ shows his hatred for Christianity and the evil that it has caused.
"I've never supported school prayer led by teachers. If students want to pray themselves in schools, more power to them."
Actually, the SCOTUS struck that one down. Students can pray but not in groups like athletic teams, etc. There's no difference between a coach leading the prayer or a student leading it. It still puts non-believers in an extremely uncomfortable position.
"The Constitution proffers no power for the government to finance such research. It falls under the same category of wasteful spending that you so often rail against."
You're right, I do - but science is one of the few areas that I believe government should give money to. It would be disastrous for this country to lose the war with stem cells and lack behind others like South Korea. I want what's best for this country - not what's best for Jesus.
"What's wrong with that quote?
All of our leaders have spoken in the same manner. Our belief in God is prevalent throughout American history."
It's the belief that the strong, Christian nations of the world have an obligation to help others. That it's our job to destroy tyranny and support democracies. I know how this works because I used to be one of the strongest supporters of such policies. The idea of the strong helping the weak is very prevalent throughout Christianity (as is the good vs. evil theme) and I see that as the reason why we're still in Iraq.
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Post by FightingFalcon on Jul 11, 2007 4:13:08 GMT -8
"Well, at least your not freaking out as much as the anti- Romney folks are."
I have other problems with Romney - his religion doesn't bother me too much. At least he believes in evolution...
"Hmm, when I took the oath, the phrase so help me God was optional."
I've heard that too but I'm not sure. Either way, I don't put too much stock into that phrase. People are afraid of Atheists and think that we are less honorable/trust-worthy because we don't have to live in fear but that's far from true.
"People today just are more concerned with materialism and have no patience to listen to God"
Well that's been a well-documented phenomenon throughout most of history. The socially and economically comfortable have always rarely been religious. God is very much a need-based idea and those who don't need him won't turn to him. It's no surprise why religion is most popular among the poor and uneducated and gradually gets less popular the more money and education a person has.
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Post by FightingFalcon on Jul 11, 2007 4:16:13 GMT -8
"Dawkins, Hitchens, and Harris have no perceptible influence on our society. They are the results of our societies beliefs and attitudes, not the other way around."
For once, I agree. Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris aren't setting the national debate but simply responding to a, until recently, very small and non-vocal non-Theist community. They have found quite a popular niche for themselves in people who are tired of religion but have hung on for family reasons, personal safety, etc. Finally, America is finding out just how popular Atheism really is in this country.
"I wonder why the Evangelicals are taking all the heat. They are not that large of a group. They are believed to be more influential than they really are."
Did you see the movie Jesus Camp? That's why - many people are freaked out by evangelical Christians. Many of them honestly want a theocracy and are no better than Islamic terrorists.
I'm not going to defend other nations just because they are Atheists. I hate Communism with a passion and I am not going to come to the defense of Communists.
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Post by MARIO on Jul 11, 2007 9:10:10 GMT -8
How about I post our treaty with Tripoli, in which John Adams states that we are, in no way, a Christian nation? We can go back and forth all day with Founding Father quotes if you really want to. Or the one where TJ shows his hatred for Christianity and the evil that it has caused.
James, the only person I know who consistently refers to our treaty with tripoli is Alan Colmes. lol
You're intelligent enough to know what that Treaty was all about. John Adams came to the defense of belief in God and Christianity later on in life, as did Thomas Jefferson. Read Jefferson's Second Inaugural Address. Jefferson himself rejected evolution.
Actually, the SCOTUS struck that one down. Students can pray but not in groups like athletic teams, etc. There's no difference between a coach leading the prayer or a student leading it. It still puts non-believers in an extremely uncomfortable position.
Puts them in an uncomfortable position? Please, James, that's something only a liberal would say. If they feel uncomfortable, so be it. They'll have to learn to deal with it - that's life. You didn't feel uncomfortable mentioning God in taking your oath.
You're right, I do - but science is one of the few areas that I believe government should give money to. It would be disastrous for this country to lose the war with stem cells and lack behind others like South Korea. I want what's best for this country - not what's best for Jesus.
Actually, you should know that those reports of South Korea's breakthrough with embryonic stem cells was false. The doctor was lying.
Nope. Our Pharmaceutical companies do extremely well in developing life-saving drugs. If the private sector is interested in embryonic stem cells, it will pursue it for the purposes of profit. Right now, adult stem cells are being used increasingly to treat some of the worst ailments.
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Post by FightingFalcon on Jul 11, 2007 12:45:01 GMT -8
"You're intelligent enough to know what that Treaty was all about. John Adams came to the defense of belief in God and Christianity later on in life, as did Thomas Jefferson. Read Jefferson's Second Inaugural Address. Jefferson himself rejected evolution."
Jefferson rejected evolution? That's amazing considering that the theory of evolution wasn't even espoused by Darwin until the late 19th Century...
I'm not going to get into a pissing match about the Founding Fathers. Both sides drag out quotes to support their side and there are plenty out there but I'm not going to do it. We could argue all day long about it.
"Puts them in an uncomfortable position? Please, James, that's something only a liberal would say. If they feel uncomfortable, so be it. They'll have to learn to deal with it - that's life. You didn't feel uncomfortable mentioning God in taking your oath."
I'm sure you would be saying the same thing if it were the opposite way around. If it was a bunch of Muslims who wanted to pray to Allah while the Christians sat quietly.
"Actually, you should know that those reports of South Korea's breakthrough with embryonic stem cells was false. The doctor was lying."
Yes, in that specific case the doctor was lying. But I'm still afraid of our country falling behind the race in what could be completely break-through medical science. The chance exists for us to re-grown dead or dying cells, which would give us limitless potential to cure disease, re-grow limbs, grow organs, etc. We won't know until we actually try...
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Post by dustdevil28 on Jul 11, 2007 15:00:05 GMT -8
People are afraid of Atheists and think that we are less honorable/trust-worthy because we don't have to live in fear but that's far from true. Nothing personnal James, but I trust somebody who believes in God Vs someone who believes in nothing. I know it's not exactly "nothing" to you, but when someone is making choices that affect millions I want him to take into account what will happen to him in the next world. I'd also prefer someone who has a relationship with God to where they remember all the good that Christianity is supposed to stand for. An athiest may have the pride to say "I don't live in fear," but such a attitude will only lead that individual into thinking they are better than the masses. What leads to their downfall James? Poor leadership and mismanagement do play their parts, but wouldn't a closer relationship with God draw these people to work harder and to focus on keeping the morals of family, and service to country before self? |
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Post by jfree on Jul 11, 2007 19:42:11 GMT -8
Tell that to the victims of Mao, Stalin and the Kamir Rouge why don't you, oh yeah you can't their dead, who do they specifically seak out to kill... Buddhists, Jews and Christians, all because of the atheistic religion of the state inherent in Communism, you can throw out red herrings till the air is full of flies and the stink of rotting flesh, but it won't cover the mass graves in the Eastern world.
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Post by FightingFalcon on Jul 11, 2007 19:57:26 GMT -8
I know it's not exactly "nothing" to you
Exactly - its not "nothing". The loyalty that you have to God is the loyalty that I have to the Constitution and the ideals of Liberty, Truth and Justice. I can believe in the same ideals that you do - I don't need a holy book to tell me that.
I'd also prefer someone who has a relationship with God to where they remember all the good that Christianity is supposed to stand for.
I prefer someone to remember what they took an Oath to defend. It has nothing to do with Christian ideals.
An athiest may have the pride to say "I don't live in fear," but such a attitude will only lead that individual into thinking they are better than the masses.
Human competition is driven by the belief that you are better than others. If we believed that we were equal, we would live in perfect Statism. There is nothing wrong with believing that you are better than others.
but wouldn't a closer relationship with God draw these people to work harder and to focus on keeping the morals of family, and service to country before self?
I would say its the opposite - as an Officer who is charged with the defense of the Constitution, I serve no other masters. Questions such as "does this order conflict with my religious belief?" will never arise with me. While religion offers distractions that can cause a normal Officer to hesitate, I suffer from no such delusions. I only have one master.
Jfree - I'm not going to respond to your post.
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Post by cataracts on Jul 11, 2007 22:52:52 GMT -8
1) You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve.
You shall have no other gods before Me.
2) The name of the Lord is holy
3) Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
4) Honor you mother and father.
5) You shall not kill.
6) You shall not commit adultery.
7) You shall not steal.
8) You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
9) You shall not covet your neighbors wife.
10) You shall not covet your neighbors goods.
These are the Ten Commandments as listed by the Roman Catholic Church. They are pretty much the same as the Protestant and the Jewish Commandments.
If you are an atheist, then you don't believe in God. If you don't believe in God, then you don't have to follow the Ten Commandments. Why should you? They are just a bunch of rules and regulatioins that were forced upon you by religious people. They are, for the most part, uneducated, unread, and stupid.
If you didn't believe in the Ten Commandments I wouldn't want you living next door to me.
I wouldn't want you in any public office. I wouldn't want you leading my son into battle. You would be nothing more than self-seeking materialist. Always looking out for your own good and the hell with everyone else.
I've heard that atheists have values. What could these values be if not something passed down from Christianity. If that's the case, an atheist may have values one day and the next day they're gone. A man would have to be insane to trust an atheist in any way shape or form. An atheists obeys nothing but what he desires.
Joseph Stalin knew about the values of atheist. He knew that their self serving ways is just what he needed in the Soviet Union. His problem at first was that the Soviet Union was too Christian. He stole the Russian people's faith by convincing them that atheism was really a good thing and that Christianity was a fake. One of his chief accomplices in this evil deed was Darwin and his theories of natural selection and evolution. With this theory he would be able to prove that God didn't exist and if God didn't exist, then Christianity is a fake.
Untold millions of people met their death because of this man and his warped dream. I would say that people are still dying today over this great hoax.
God loves everyone, even the atheist. However, he will put them where they most want to go.
Cataracts
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Post by FightingFalcon on Jul 12, 2007 1:53:19 GMT -8
Cataracts - You can join Jfree in the corner for making idiotic comments that I won't respond to.
I've already addressed the whole "Atheists have no morality" argument. I won't again.
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Post by dustdevil28 on Jul 12, 2007 14:27:09 GMT -8
Exactly - its not nothing. The loyalty that you have to God is the loyalty that I have to the Constitution and the ideals of Liberty, Truth and Justice. I can believe in the same ideals that you do - I don't need a holy book to tell me that. Like I said, I know this is not the case with you, but with Atheism I've noticed that many of them seem to get a kind of arrogance. I'd rather trust somebody who has enough pride to stand for what they believe is right, but is humble enough to know it is not their right to make decisions for others. What about your belief in the constitution though. Do you find that as a belief of the goodness that man can acheive? Or as a belief in allowing others the freedom to come to their own conclusions? If you follow that, I don't really see much difference between you and me except for the fact that I still acknowledge that their is a God and that he is the one who gave me free will to decide how to live my life. On a different note, do you know much about the early religious teachings of the Iroquois indians? A book I'm reading right now just went over this and spoke of the indians belief in something similar to karma, where everything is kept in balance to keep one side from dominating the other. Pretty interesting I thought, but I'll probably write more about that when I finish the book. And to whom are they taking that oath? What consequence do they believe will happen to them if they don't stay true to that oath? An athiest can certainly hold true to his oath as part of his personnal priciples, but they may also be inclined as any person to enrich themselves rather than serve the public good. The Christian faith is supposed to preach honesty and integrity. It is what our founders adhered to and what guided them as they governed over the our Country in the early years so the faith has at least some influence. I meant to speak more about arrogance. In human compitition it is natural to strive to be the best, but I wonder what a view of "I don't live in fear" will become in 10-15 years. Humility and fear are a healthy part of a person's life as well. The humilty to know that noone's view is above the others and that each have a equal voice. What order could you be given that would violate your faith and yet not allow you to defend the constitution? Religion doesn't offer distraction, but structure IMO. There mush always be limits and values to how a person lives their lives, for many of them they find this in Christianity. It's ironic that the faults that you find in religion are the same faults that I find in Atheism. I guess it all depends on how you approach your respective faith. For me, I've never been religious, but growing up in a family that was provided me with my structure that I know still guides my concious today. It is growing up in a family that believes in God, but did not force it on me, that allowed me to walk my own path and taught me the value of God's greatest gift, Free will. I hate to think of where I'd be without that influence growing up and it's there that I find fault in not believing in God. To you it seems that your belief made you resentful towards God. It seems with you, you had the opposite feeling, that God didn't really give you free will and instead restricted you to rules that felt unnatural. Is that about accurate? Oh, and sorry for the rambling response, my sleep hours are switched this week and I tend to be a bit loopy in the afternoon. |
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Post by FightingFalcon on Jul 12, 2007 16:25:52 GMT -8
I'd rather trust somebody who has enough pride to stand for what they believe is right, but is humble enough to know it is not their right to make decisions for others.
This is why I don't speak for all Atheists. Some of them succumb to hedonism and simply waste their lives. I have absolutely no respect for an Atheist who, after years of academic inquiry about religion, philosophy, etc. turns around and does nothing with their life. I at least have respect for a Theist who truly believes in his or her religion and works hard to defend it. That's why I don't let Atheism define who I am - I let my philosophy (Objectivism) do that for me because religious choice is not of supreme importance to me. There are much more important concepts out there.
Or as a belief in allowing others the freedom to come to their own conclusions?
The Ayn Rand quote that I had in my signature before I put up the Airman's Creed perfectly summed up how I felt about the Constitution and the original principles of America. The Constitution provided the frame-work for the greatest and *only* moral country in the history of the world. The only moral country because it was the only country in the world that didn't expect anything from its citizens. It established a country of independently thinking men who came together as a group on a strictly voluntary basis to form contracts. The initiation of the use of force was frowned upon and commerce was free and open. As TJ said about our early history - alliances with none, trade with all. That's why I love our Constitution so much.
On a different note, do you know much about the early religious teachings of the Iroquois indians?
No, I usually stick to the Big Three Western religions and pagan faiths. But I reject all ideas of karma, pre-destination, etc. Anything that takes away from complete free will I reject.
And to whom are they taking that oath? What consequence do they believe will happen to them if they don't stay true to that oath?
I can only speak for myself, but I have to answer to people that I respect much more than the Christian god. I have to answer to the Constitution, the American Republic, myself and my historical heroes. I have to answer to people like George Washington, Cato the Younger, Brutus, etc. People that have had a tremendous impact on my life and help guide my development. Most importantly, I have to answer to myself. I could not live with myself if I broke the Oath that I took on 16 May. I would have to end my life. If I ever waver, I look back to my heroes and see what they did when the going got tough. They always end up giving me the courage I need to stay true to my ideals of Liberty, Truth and Justice for all.
Humility and fear are a healthy part of a person's life as well. The humilty to know that noone's view is above the others and that each have a equal voice.
Again, this is why I only speak for Objectivists. For Objectivists, honesty is an extremely important quality. All forms of lying, dishonesty, etc. are severely frowned upon and rejected. Some people, without the fear of eternal punishment, might act in a more dishonest way than they would otherwise. Not with me - my devotion to the Truth comes, again, from my philosophy and not from god.
In addition, Objectivism rejects any form of tyranny (over the mind or body) and values the Individual supreme above all. I do not believe that the use of force is an acceptable method of changing policy and I believe that all have an equal voice.
What order could you be given that would violate your faith and yet not allow you to defend the constitution? Religion doesn't offer distraction, but structure IMO. There mush always be limits and values to how a person lives their lives, for many of them they find this in Christianity.
A very simple example off the top of my head is a Catholic refusing to go to war if the Pope deemed the war to be against the Just War Theory and a mortal sin to participate. I would have no such hesitation if the Constitution was threatened.
To you it seems that your belief made you resentful towards God. It seems with you, you had the opposite feeling, that God didn't really give you free will and instead restricted you to rules that felt unnatural.
One of the biggest reasons why I hate religion so much is, ironically, the structure. I am an extremely inquisitive person that spends hours on end debating philosophy, religion, history, etc. I also hate hypocrisy, something that people willingly accept. When I was a Christian, there were several things that bothered me that I couldn't answer. If I couldn't reconcile something, I tended to just ignore it. But that can only work for so long before someone like myself demands an answer. Like why are there so many similarities between pagan faiths and Christianity? Why are the dinosaurs just left out of the Bible?
I strongly oppose any philosophical system, religion, etc. that seeks to curb academic free-thought. The story of Adam and Eve being punished for eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is symbolic, IMHO, of most religions. Or the Tower of Babel. The Objectivist inside me sees the Tower of Babel as a monument to the greatness of the human mind and human achievement. Judeo-Christians see it as an example of man's arrogance in challenging god. I guess that's ultimately the difference between us.
I've said many times that even if god happens to exist, I will still choose hell after I die. I neither kneel before nor serve anyone. If god promised me eternal paradise if I simply kissed his finger, I would refuse.
If you have some free time when you're finished with the book about the Iroquois, feel free to pick up The Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged. If nothing else, it will go a long way toward understanding the way that I think.
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Post by jfree on Jul 12, 2007 18:06:23 GMT -8
Hehehehehe, Im in the corner, lol, bwahahahaha, gee must have hit a nerve....lmao
FF, chill man, no need to take disagreements so seriously. I'll hang in the penalty box w/cat and giggle while you avoid the point.
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