The Religion of Peace Murders Again...

[cameron]

dstauffer said:

AmericanPride -

If I may, I would like to suggest reading Crisis of Islam: Holy War and Unholy Terror by Bernard Lewis. I think it is a very good book despite its relative shortness -- 160-some pages.

I have started reading another book by Bernard Lewis: What Went Wrong? The Clash Between Islam and Modernity in the Middle East

I've read Bernard Lewis as well dstauffer. I guess that is why I believe our fight is with the Wahhabi sect of Islam, and not the entire Islamic world. The problem is we need to see moderate Muslims speaking out against violence. Much more than we have to date, and not the lip service that is paid to the idea by Muslim groups like CAIR . Who basically say things like, yes violence is wrong and we condemn it but...

[dstauffer]

I think you may be right, cameron. The information that Bernard Lewis puts forth in Crisis of Islam about the Wahhabi sect is very good and does make one think.

If all of Islam is as some claimed, then I suspect I wouldn't be here today; I suspect that the Muslims I lived among for nearly 5 years would have killed me long ago -- including my former Muslim girlfriend.

I also agree that moderate Muslim leaders need to be more vocal in speaking out against the radicals of their religion -- this has always been my contention.

[AmericanPride]

Cameron and dstauffer,
I understand that as Americans we have an inherent tendency to seek the rational and "moderate" in any belief, philosophy, or ideology. This is of course expected in a civilized society ruled by the functions of the law. But the source of our reason stems from a foundation that is unique to Western civilization. What is a "moderate" Muslim? Does a "moderate" Muslim only hate Jews but not Americans? Does a "moderate" Muslim reject suicide-murder but embrace the oppression of women and foreign beliefs? We like to entertain the notion that somewhere, somehow the "moderates" of Islam will "rise up" against those "hi-jacking" their religion. But where are they?

It is a false hope. It is no coincidence that every "Islamic" country is beridden with poverty, violence, oppression, or a combination of the three. It is no coincidence that nearly every major rebellion, terrorism, and human rights atrocity is somehow, in someway connected to Islam. Our country's experience with Islamic violence extends as far back as the Barbary pirates who attempted to extort American shipping.

Our future is linked to Islam. The greater the strength of Islam, the less hope we have for a peaceful and prosperous future.

[Remey688]

Muslim live in the sixth century, not the 21st. There in is the problem

[tits]

"PG" for Pre-geriatric.

But I have never heard of Bernard Lewis. Is he a political analyst or sociologist, or a religious historian? It sounds like you both recommend the work.

My life and my faith changed when I survived the liver cancer in 01. I slowly began to reject the learned opinions of the religious and political analyst in favor of searching for myself. It is amazing at how much more alive the Bible has become since I chose to let God speak instead of some man telling me what God meant.

I was raised German Lutheran and the Small Catechism has really become my example for official man's interference. Not that most "self-help" religious works are any better, but in the section of the catechism on the Lord's Supper and in the 10 Commandments, Luther and those who followed have gone to great lengths to explain every word of God. For example, here is snippet from the 10 Commandments:

The First Commandment.

Thou shalt have no other gods.

What does this mean?--Answer.

We should fear, love, and trust in God above all things.

Now, I strongly believe that self-help books and books on the statement of faith are vital to help us understand. BUT....

Human nature is to take the easy way and in matters of faith, our faith is often defined by our parents and the men in the pulpit.

[AmericanPride]

Tittus,
You display a maturity in faith that the whole of Islam over the vastness of more than 10 centuries fails to understand. The struggle of Western civilization is the struggle of the individual.

But it is our common struggle against the aggressions of foreign ideologies that forges our legacy. Today, we may call for peace and justice. Tomorrow, we may be labelled corwards by our successors for not seizing the opportunity to defend our faith and values.

[tits]

In all three of the works of faith that define nearly 90% of man's faith in the world today; The Qur'an/Hadeth, The Torah/Talmud, and The Bible, all three describe homosexual behavior as an "abomination."

Qur'an: has a handful of scriptures against homosexuality, here are two: Al-A'raf (The Heights) - 7:81 "For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds."

An-Naml (The Ants) - 27:55 Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant!

Torah/Bible have very few statements on homosexuality: Here are three for the Jewish brethren.

Deuteronomy 23:17 No Israelite man or woman is to become a shrine prostitute.

Leviticus 18:22" 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Leviticus 20:13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

The Bible:

Romans 1:26-27 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

HOWEVER: The entire Western world has bought into the concept that the "old bible" was wrong because a person can be "god-fearing and righteous" and still be a homosexual. Here is one reference to "gaychruch.org" concerning the pillar statements against homosexuality. www.gaychurch.org/

What many of these "neoChristians" tend to overlook, is that homosexual lust are condemned by all major religions.

Now, dc and tankcommander can tell you that homosexual behavior is not uncommon in the Muslim world. However, no Imam or Mosque has ever stepped forward to attempt to explain away the scriptures the way the Jew and the Christian have.

The question is whether the belief in the lie God accepts homosexuality because Matthew 7:1 admonishes us not to judge another's actions because we cannot see their heart makes this a behavior that God winks at?

Further, what makes a homosexual any more or less righteous than me for my lust for my neighbor's wife? Or what make’s that behavior any more depraved than anger that leads to death? Or the individual addicted to pornography or “kiddie porn”? If Roman’s 1:24-25 are correct, than to believe a lie is still a lie no matter how hard we attempt to explain our actions in a righteous light.

this is one example of how masses of people have marched off following the teaching of man rather than seeking to know God for themselves.


Romans 1:24-25 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

[tits]

You are light-years ahead of myself at your age.

[tits]

denounced by Judaism and Islam. In Judaism, a sin greater than homosexuality is the "discharge" that comes from masturbation. Female masturbation in not a sin in Judaism, but the male discharge is unclean and a "stonable" offense. In fact, Leviticus has procedures for "nocturnal discharge" that comes from a wet dream. Very elaborate and involves the sacrificing of a lamb and seven days separation from the tribe during the days of purification.

So much for those Jewish Playboy subscriptions.

[AmericanPride]

Tittus,
The "justification" of homosexuality is an extension of the aging argument(s) projected by the Darwinists and humanists that have denied God, truth, and morality for centuries. It is interesting to note that these same people who justify homosexuality, praise the "way of nature" and so on are the first to complain when the actions of men with power disrupt their fragile sensibilities. If the evolutionist embraces the survival of the fittest, he should not be concerned with the strong conquering the weak, or with Mankind exploiting the earth. If the homosexual embraces "free love" and hedonist self-pleasures, he should not object to the rapist or abuser who seeks to only pleasure himself.

These are the same consequences of vain philosophies and empty faiths. The comforts of the material world have weakened the faith of men. When we are detached from the natural world of struggle, what incentive is there to believe in God, the Protector? When our daily lives are consumed by routine and satisfaction, what reason is there to concern ourselves with destiny, sin, and the afterlife? We are not spurred to action because barriers temporarily shield us from the challenges of piety.

[tits]

Excellent observation!

[dstauffer]

Tittus -

To answer your question about Bernard Lewis:

Bernard Lewis is the Cleveland E. Dodge Professor of Near Eastern Studies Emeritus at Princenton University. He is widely recognized as an eminent authority on Middle East history and has authored over two dozen books.

In What Went Wrong? The Clash Between Islam and Modernity in the Middle East, Professor Lewis concludes that Islam's strong reluctance or, in some cases, outright rejection of modernization are the causes of the problems between Islam (specifically, the Middle East) and the West.

Essentially, classical Muslim leaders wish to remain true to the Prophet's teachings; thereby, remain in the 7th century. Kemal Attaturk was a true reforming leader, embarking Turkey on a great many reforms. Today, countries such as Turkey and Jordan are considered to be modern Islamic nations; one could argue that Dubai is even modern, by Islamic standards -- it is growing as a favorite vacation desitnation and Kuwait is trying to achieve the same goal.

[Merceditas]

As much as Bernard Lewis makes some excellent points in his books, many of them seem to point to the psychological reasons 'why'. I haven't read all of his books, but those I have, have been helpful.

Today, for complex reasons, cultural/religious/whatever , I see one of the big hurdles we in the 'West' have to overcome is seeing through those 'moderates' who seem to speak for Islam. You see them and read their words, the media gives them the most attention as experts of some sort. Well if this is an example of their experts and spokesmen, we're in trouble and so is Islam.

The latest was a meeting of Islamic representatives and in their reasoned view, there has to be an 'understanding' between the West and Islam. It boils down to the West has to curb their expression to suit Muslim sensibilities. What exasperated me was the reason they gave for their meeting. (in so many words:) The reason for this meeting was the Danish cartoons. Note, the reason for the meeting wasn't the outrageous violence that MUSLIMS perpetrated, destroying, lawlessness, burning, killing, etc......even though they made sure that they condemned the violence, in as little a comment as possible. oh no....The violence wasn't the problem at all, really.

[AmericanPride]

Merc,
The existence of "moderates" among Islam is an illusion. If they do not hate Americans, they hate Jews. If they do not suicide-murder in jihad, they riot and loot because of cartoons. If they do not suppress the Christian or the Jew, they suppress women. It is a false philosophy driven by a vain intellect and empty faith. We in the West must come to an understanding: we are at war and we must win.

[dstauffer]

"The existence of "moderates" among Islam is an illusion."

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on that point, AmericanPride. I have met many Muslims, here in Iraq as well as in Bosnia, who are moderate in their views.