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Post by cameron on Mar 17, 2006 7:25:12 GMT -8
Merc, The existence of "moderates" among Islam is an illusion. If they do not hate Americans, they hate Jews. If they do not suicide-murder in jihad, they riot and loot because of cartoons. If they do not suppress the Christian or the Jew, they suppress women. It is a false philosophy driven by a vain intellect and empty faith. We in the West must come to an understanding: we are at war and we must win. AP that's not so, the vast majority want the same things out of life that every other person on the planet wants. To raise family be able to feed and educate your children. The hope that things will be better for them than it is for you. The vast majority of Muslims are not spoiling for a fight. |
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Post by AmericanPride on Mar 17, 2006 7:39:31 GMT -8
Cameron,
Germans in 1943 wanted to raise families. Russians in 1954 wanted to feed and educate their children. The "vast majority" of British in 1775 wanted "the same things out of life that every other person on the planet want[ed]." This does not make them our friends. This does not make them "like us". This does not preclude struggle.
They may "hope" for a better future. But we cannot tolerate the cost to us.
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Post by cameron on Mar 17, 2006 8:16:32 GMT -8
Cameron, Germans in 1943 wanted to raise families. Russians in 1954 wanted to feed and educate their children. The "vast majority" of British in 1775 wanted "the same things out of life that every other person on the planet want[ed]." This does not make them our friends. This does not make them "like us". This does not preclude struggle. They may "hope" for a better future. But we cannot tolerate the cost to us. AP Hitler came to power because of the foolish policies enforced on the German nation by the victors of WWI. He was perceived to be giving Germans their pride back and making life better for your average German. Even so there were Germans who perceived him to be what he was and never ceased trying to get rid of him. The Russians were controlled by a totalitarian regime headed by a man arguably worse than Hitler. The American revolution came about due to the stupidity of the King and those in power in the parliament. The average Brit viewed it as a civil war (and to a degree it was). Many were sympathetic to the cause, and the Brits learned from that mistake. Islam has never had their reformation, it is a religion stuck in the 7th century. They need to reconcile with modernity, you will get no argument from me on that score. You need to consider what the ramification are to what it is you are advocating. If you are right (you are not) then we really should go in and kill all those who will not convert. What you are advocating is as abhorrent to me as what the radical islamo-fascists advocate. If you are right then so are they. Try not to be such a bloody minded man. |
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Post by AmericanPride on Mar 17, 2006 8:32:47 GMT -8
Cameron,
The truth, by its nature, excludes falsehood. Right excludes wrong. Liberty excludes tyranny. Consequently, our continued security and prosperity excludes Islam. You may certainly believe in the never-to-come hope of a "moderate" uprising in Islam. You may hope for its "reformation". But even the Christian reformation was only followed by more intense violence. History clearly illustrates the stakes of this struggle. "Moderate" Muslims did not raid US shipping and enslave US merchants in the 1800s. "Moderate" Muslims did not subjugate the Balkans, Spain, and North Africa through the sword. "Moderate" Muslims did not storm the US Embassy in Iran and hold our people hostage for hundreds of days. "Moderate" Muslims did not hi-jack US aircraft and crash them into our buildings. "Moderate" Muslims are not waging a holy war against the "Great Satan". This is because "moderate" Muslims do not exist.
You may say they do and that they are silent. But silence is consent. Silence is agreement. Silence is guilt.
What drives Islam? What drives jihad? They claim they are only defending themselves from the crusader and the zionist. You are an infidel. I am an infidel. Whatever our differences, they seek to make our fates the same.
We are at war. Refusing to recognize it only strengthens the hand of our enemy. You may question the conclusions of my observations. You may question what right we have for war. But those who understand realize that they have no right for peace.
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Post by cameron on Mar 17, 2006 8:34:45 GMT -8
Cameron, The truth, by its nature, excludes falsehood. Right excludes wrong. Liberty excludes tyranny. Consequently, our continued security and prosperity excludes Islam. You may certainly believe in the never-to-come hope of a "moderate" uprising in Islam. You may hope for its "reformation". But even the Christian reformation was only followed by more intense violence. History clearly illustrates the stakes of this struggle. "Moderate" Muslims did not raid US shipping and enslave US merchants in the 1800s. "Moderate" Muslims did not subjugate the Balkans, Spain, and North Africa through the sword. "Moderate" Muslims did not storm the US Embassy in Iran and hold our people hostage for hundreds of days. "Moderate" Muslims did not hi-jack US aircraft and crash them into our buildings. "Moderate" Muslims are not waging a holy war against the "Great Satan". This is because "moderate" Muslims do not exist. You may say they do and that they are silent. But silence is consent. Silence is agreement. Silence is guilt. What drives Islam? What drives jihad? They claim they are only defending themselves from the crusader and the zionist. You are an infidel. I am an infidel. Whatever our differences, they seek to make our fates the same. We are at war. Refusing to recognize it only strengthens the hand of our enemy. You need to learn to judge not, lest ye be judged and to do unto others as you would have done unto you. Despite what you may feel you do not have a exclusive and undistorted view of truth. In my view you are sinning against the God you proclaim to have faith in. |
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Post by AmericanPride on Mar 17, 2006 8:39:12 GMT -8
Cameron,
History will judge us regardless.
What has been done unto our country has yet to be done upon Islam.
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Post by cameron on Mar 17, 2006 8:42:08 GMT -8
Cameron, History will judge us regardless. Hahaha mind pointing out to me where I ever gave you the idea I care what the judgment of men might be? How many times do I need to say the same thing? I don't concern myself with the judgment of man. I follow the light cast by my own conscience. Vengeance is mine sayest the lord. |
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Post by dstauffer on Mar 17, 2006 8:45:12 GMT -8
AmericanPride -
Are you suggesting that every Muslim be eliminated?
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Post by cameron on Mar 17, 2006 8:48:14 GMT -8
AmericanPride - Are you suggesting that every Muslim be eliminated? You know I don't think that is what he is trying to say, but it is the logical conclusion to his reasoning. |
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Post by AmericanPride on Mar 17, 2006 8:50:57 GMT -8
dstauffer,
I am not suggesting genocide. Religion can be seperated from the man. We are at war with an ideology. We destroyed NAZIism without destroying the German race. We destroyed communism without destroying the Russian race. We can do the same with Islam. Just as millions decided to perish with NAZIism or communism, so it may be the same for Islam - that is certainly beyond our power to choose.
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Post by cameron on Mar 17, 2006 8:56:49 GMT -8
dstauffer, I am not suggesting genocide. Religion can be seperated from the man. We are at war with an ideology. We destroyed NAZIism without destroying the German race. We destroyed communism without destroying the Russian race. We can do the same with Islam. Just as millions decided to perish with NAZIism or communism, so it may be the same for Islam - that is certainly beyond our power to choose. So to be a Muslim is the equivalent of being a NAZI? |
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Post by AmericanPride on Mar 17, 2006 8:57:01 GMT -8
Cameron,
God will forgive what mistakes we make. Our posterity will not. We are left to our own devices, and we must choose whether or not it is within our moral code to ensure the survival of our 300 million people, or to allow them to perish for fear of us being judged. No man has greater love than he who gives his life for his country.
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Post by dstauffer on Mar 17, 2006 8:59:45 GMT -8
"Religion can be seperated from the man." This is exactly how the Bosnian-Muslims I have met felt. In fact, they are more nationalistic than they are Muslim.
"Nazism" and Communism wasn't destroyed, AmericanPride. Nazi Germany was defeated and the Soviet Union does not exist. But both ideologies live on in today's world. Plus, I think you are confusing an ideology with a religion.
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Post by AmericanPride on Mar 17, 2006 9:05:22 GMT -8
dstauffer,
Islam is no different than national socialism or communism, or any other framework of thinking that is contradictory to the foundations of our republic and the values of our nation. National socialism and communism have been disarmed. Islam has not. Islam is mobilized for war. If the destruction of our embassies, the murder of our civilians, and the daily killings of our soldiers is not war, what is?
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Post by dstauffer on Mar 17, 2006 9:10:36 GMT -8
When Muhammed founded the Islamic religion, he was not only the spitritual leader of his followers, he was also the political and military leader of the community and handed down laws, metted out justice, and conducted military campaigns to spread Islam throughout Arabia and the Middle East.
To a classical Muslim, Islam is not just their religion; it is their law and their way of life. For a classical Muslim, the Qu'ran is not their Holy Book; it is their constitution -- for a lack of a better way to put it. We Westerners have a very hard time accepting that concept.
By no means am I defending the actions or beliefs of the radical elements within Islam, but I also refuse to lump them all together.
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