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Post by cameron on Mar 17, 2006 9:17:10 GMT -8
Cameron, God will forgive what mistakes we make. Our posterity will not. We are left to our own devices, and we must choose whether or not it is within our moral code to ensure the survival of our 300 million people, or to allow them to perish for fear of us being judged. No man has greater love than he who gives his life for his country. Forgive me for being more concerned with Gods judgment, the future is in his hands, not yours or mine. AP you are making false choices. I am already a sinner in fear of being judged, that is why I've accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior in the first place. As for the survival of 300 million people that is not in my hands, it's in God's hands. And Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. |
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Post by dstauffer on Mar 17, 2006 9:17:42 GMT -8
dstauffer, Islam is no different than national socialism or communism, or any other framework of thinking that is contradictory to the foundations of our republic and the values of our nation. National socialism and communism have been disarmed. Islam has not. Islam is mobilized for war. If the destruction of our embassies, the murder of our civilians, and the daily killings of our soldiers is not war, what is? So, AmericanPride, you think Islam is a political/social ideology versus a religion? Am I correct on this or have I misunderstood you? |
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Post by AmericanPride on Mar 17, 2006 9:18:30 GMT -8
dstauffer,
I am sure that if you looked within the ranks of the NAZI Party in 1941 or the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, you would have found dissent and "moderation". But that did not change the course of World War II or the Cold War. Did we make war only upon the "radical" elements of NAZIism and communism?
Whatever the personal beliefs of individual Muslims within the framework of Islam, they are not changing the collision course their religion has with our country.
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Post by AmericanPride on Mar 17, 2006 9:23:18 GMT -8
Cameron,
I am not in fear of being judged. What fate God has reserved for me has already been decided. I can only follow the course before me. We must do what must be done for the survival of our people, and pray for the salvation of our own souls later. There is no greater love than this.
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Post by dstauffer on Mar 17, 2006 9:33:36 GMT -8
AmericanPride -
The "radical" elements of the Nazi party were the leaders; so, yes, we did wage war against the "radical" element and we won that war. The demise of the Soviet Union was caused "from within" by the satellite nations seeking their independence; and given the economic status of the Soviet Union, it seemed pretty inevitable too.
Do you think radical Islamics have just a "beef" with the United States and no one else? Islam has been on a "collision course" with the West ever since its founding. In many ways, Islam has already collided with the West. Did it ever occur to you that may be Islam is in conflict with itself? There are "moderate" leaders who want their countries to progress; then there are classical Muslims who view modernity as being dangerous; then you have the radical elements (bin Laden and his ilk) who want nothing more than power and will do whatever is necessary to achieve that power -- they are the ones who are longing for the glory days of the Ottoman Empire.
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Post by cameron on Mar 17, 2006 9:37:25 GMT -8
Cameron, I am not in fear of being judged. What fate God has reserved for me has already been decided. I can only follow the course before me. We must do what must be done for the survival of our people, and pray for the salvation of our own souls later. There is no greater love than this. No, you are mistaken, and no kind of Christian if that is what you believe. My first duty is to God, to sacrifice my salvation for the salvation of my nation, is a false choice. You are not in control nor can you be, that is an illusion, all is in God's hands. What is it that makes you so bloody minded? War is not something to be looked forward to, but to be dreaded and avoided as best we can. Even if you are right you should hope and pray that you are not. I really think that only a young man could hold such a view as yours. I can't imagine you understand the magnitude of what it is you are preaching. IF you are correct, forget the bloodshed ending in your life time. It would necessarily go on for 3 to 4 generations. |
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Post by AmericanPride on Mar 17, 2006 9:55:22 GMT -8
Cameron,
It is not a "false choice". The American nation is not an ideological construct, or limited to some lines on a map. It is the faces we see everyday on the television and in the streets. They are real people - friend and stranger alike. We are God's children. We are brothers and sisters in a Christian nation. It is a "false choice" to give one's life for them?
It is better to sin, knowing that our people will endure, rather than let them perish realizing that we are sinners regardless.
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Post by AmericanPride on Mar 17, 2006 10:00:11 GMT -8
dstauffer,
You and I are not so different. You say that Islam is on a collosion course with the West, and has been since its inception. I do not disagree. What is America but the culmination of Western development? Islam may certainly be at war with itself. But it is definately a mistake to make war upon others while warring against onself.
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Post by dstauffer on Mar 17, 2006 10:07:05 GMT -8
AmericanPride -
Oh, but we are quite different: you believe Islam is a vile creature that must be eradicated from the earth, I do not; you believe that every single Muslim (which numbers in the millions since Islam is the second-largest religion on earth) is out to destroy the United States; I do not.
There is a big difference between war and conflict, AmericanPride. Just as there is conflict in Islam, there is conflict in Christianity; the conversation between you and cameron on your religious beliefs gives some evidence to that.
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Post by cameron on Mar 17, 2006 10:13:43 GMT -8
Cameron, It is not a "false choice". The American nation is not an ideological construct, or limited to some lines on a map. It is the faces we see everyday on the television and in the streets. They are real people - friend and stranger alike. We are God's children. We are brothers and sisters in a Christian nation. It is a "false choice" to give one's life for them? It is better to sin, knowing that our people will endure, rather than let them perish realizing that we are sinners regardless. You need to take some time and contemplate my last post to you. We are all of us, on this infintesimally small blue sphere, God's children, that includes the heathens. The false choice you presented to me was, fight now worry about salvation latter. Now you present me with a second false choice, and I say devil get thee behind me. I do believe this nation is blessed by God. If it is, or if it is not, is not in my or your control, if it should flourish or perish is in God's hand's. The best I can do, is to follow the light cast by my own conscience. Now take the time that is required to mull over and digest what is I'm trying to convey to you, from my heart to your heart. |
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Post by cameron on Mar 17, 2006 10:23:46 GMT -8
AmericanPride - Oh, but we are quite different: you believe Islam is a vile creature that must be eradicated from the earth, I do not; you believe that every single Muslim (which numbers in the millions since Islam is the second-largest religion on earth) is out to destroy the United States; I do not. There is a big difference between war and conflict, AmericanPride. Just as there is conflict in Islam, there is conflict in Christianity; the conversation between you and cameron on your religious beliefs gives some evidence to that. Oh I don't know about that, do you really think our disagrement amounts to a conflict within Christianity? Not to be take AP lightly but somehow I doubt he could recruit any Christian theologians to his view. |
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Post by dstauffer on Mar 17, 2006 10:32:38 GMT -8
Yes, cameron, it does amount to a conflict of sorts: you have your views; he has his views. Though both of you seem deeply rooted in you religious beliefs, to me, there are stark differences in how you believe.
The degrees and depth of conflict vary greatly. I hope you understand what I mean.
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Post by cameron on Mar 17, 2006 10:40:59 GMT -8
Yes, cameron, it does amount to a conflict of sorts: you have your views; he has his views. Though both of you seem deeply rooted in you religious beliefs, to me, there are stark differences in how you believe. The degrees and depth of conflict vary greatly. I hope you understand what I mean. I think disagreement would be a more accurate description but I recognize the usefulness of your analogy to make a valid point. I was just being playful  |
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Post by cameron on Mar 17, 2006 12:46:12 GMT -8
AP I'm by no means a softy when it comes to what is going to be required of both us and the Muslim world when it comes to confronting honestly the very real problems they have and the problems we have with them. Here is a link to a writter and hard nosed realist when it comes to what will be demanded in order to defeat the islamo-fascists. Trust me you will like it.
The Muslim Brotherhood And The First Strike War Doctrine |
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Post by tits on Mar 17, 2006 12:49:55 GMT -8
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