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Post by dustdevil28 on Jul 3, 2015 19:20:52 GMT -8
I'm surprised not to see this over here.
Perhaps its in the second amendment forum.
Anyway, not sure what you're guys thoughts are on this. I think for the most part all of us are not from the South. Growing up in Nevada I was always a little curious why those in the South continued to fly this flag and why we tolerated it. It was the flag of a treasonous force, one which took up arms against their fellow Americans. When I went to my first duty station my best friend was a kid from Georgia. He loved the South and loved the flag. Whenever I'd ask him about it he would talk about it being a symbol of their home, and something to remind them that they stood up for themselves against what they considered a northern aggressor.
Overall I think its a source of southern pride with a history which includes a lot of other nobler deeds then the taint of slavery and racism. I understand why black people will never see anything other then the racism associated with that flag, but I also understand why a person flying it shouldn't be considered a racist either.
Thoughts?
-DD
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Post by Sailor on Jul 4, 2015 7:26:40 GMT -8
Part of the problem is that our society is becoming less and less tolerant, this despite the recent ruling by the SCOTUS on gay "marriage."
I've noticed that when I try to explain the difference between the "Stars and Bars" (Confederate National Ensign) and the "Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia" (often referred to (incorrectly) as "The Confederate Flag") eyes glaze over, ears and minds close. These people don't care that it was the Federal Government (the North) that decided states could not leave the Union as permitted in the Constitution to go their own way.
Now we have State and local governments moving to tear out memorials to Confederate soldiers who fell in battle while defending their homes, we have at least one city wanting to dig up a Confederate General from a memorial park (without mentioning what they would do with his remains,) an old movie (Gone with the Wind) and TV show (Dukes of Hazzard) being lambasted or pulled simply because someone says they are "offensive." When did the Dukes hurl racial slurs? I don't recall that they ever did.
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Post by 101ABN on Jul 4, 2015 7:54:28 GMT -8
Yet the same people who now refuse to sell the battle flag or toy models of the "General Lee" will still quite happily sell a Che Guevara t-shirt or an ISIS flag.
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Post by warrior1972 on Jul 4, 2015 8:37:58 GMT -8
To me, the Confederate flag is the ultimate symbol of the highest form of treason, i.e ., an attempt to create a separate, independent government and country, using a portion of the original nation's population and territory. And no, it's not "the same as the American Revolution", like some people would have you believe. We were not truly part of Great Britain, We were never geographically part of Great Britain, and we were never treated as true British citizens. In fact, That's one of the reasons WHY we revolted against Great Britain. We were expected to bear the responsibilities, but never given the rights of being full British citizens.
And then, we get to the slavery issue, which was an indelible part of the Confederate States of America that it would seem some would rather forget. Indeed, it was written into the very fabric of the Confederate states' declarations for secession.
They make for interesting reading, by the way:
www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html These declarations were written at that time, by the people who were secessionists, and at the time the Confederacy was formed. THIS WAS WHO THEY WERE, WHAT THEY WERE SAYING, AND WHAT THEIR SYMBOLS STOOD FOR.
And then, we come to the Confederate flag.
And that's what black people see when they see the Confederate flag. It's all in the Declarations of Secession. The Confederacy made it perfectly clear what their intentions were, and the reasons for them. The Confederacy left NO DOUBT, NONE WHATSOEVER, what it stood for. And NOBODY can tell us anything different. One last thing... Happy Fourth of July. No, that's not sarcasm. I mean it. We are ALL Americans, under ONE flag, and it's NOT the CONFEDERATE one.
Or, as someone said: "One nation, under God, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL."
Once again: Happy Fourth of July. -A Warrior from 1972 |
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Post by Sailor on Jul 5, 2015 10:17:47 GMT -8
Happy Independence Day y'all!
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Post by 101ABN on Jul 5, 2015 10:20:29 GMT -8
Happy Independence Day y'all! Roger that! |
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Post by dustdevil28 on Jul 5, 2015 19:17:19 GMT -8
Part of the problem is that our society is becoming less and less tolerant, this despite the recent ruling by the SCOTUS on gay "marriage." I've noticed that when I try to explain the difference between the "Stars and Bars" (Confederate National Ensign) and the "Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia" (often referred to (incorrectly) as "The Confederate Flag") eyes glaze over, ears and minds close. These people don't care that it was the Federal Government (the North) that decided states could not leave the Union as permitted in the Constitution to go their own way. Now we have State and local governments moving to tear out memorials to Confederate soldiers who fell in battle while defending their homes, we have at least one city wanting to dig up a Confederate General from a memorial park (without mentioning what they would do with his remains,) an old movie (Gone with the Wind) and TV show (Dukes of Hazzard) being lambasted or pulled simply because someone says they are "offensive." When did the Dukes hurl racial slurs? I don't recall that they ever did. I have no issues with the flag, or those who would wish to fly it, but I also can understand why others would view it with disdain. I am offended others would want to desecrate a war memorial or dig up the remains of a Confederate General. Don't like them? Fine, but they died fighting for what they considered their country and while defending their homes. Let them rest in peace. -DD |
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Post by dustdevil28 on Jul 5, 2015 19:30:21 GMT -8
To me, the Confederate flag is the ultimate symbol of the highest form of treason, i.e ., an attempt to create a separate, independent government and country, using a portion of the original nation's population and territory. Alright. Alright. Uh huh, and do these views apply to those who support the flag today? Are they all racists? Do they fly the flag as a support for the days of slavery, or is there another reason? I doubt anyone told you to like or care for the flag, but they probably tried to educate you as to why THEY cared for it. -DD |
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Post by warrior1972 on Jul 6, 2015 3:02:22 GMT -8
"Uh huh, and do these views apply to those who support the flag today?"
I didn't say they did.
"Are they all racists?"
I didn't say they were.
"Do they fly the flag as a support for the days of slavery, or is there another reason?"
Perhaps you should re-read what I DID say, and be less concerned about what I DIDN'T say.
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Post by dustdevil28 on Jul 6, 2015 17:25:24 GMT -8
"Uh huh, and do these views apply to those who support the flag today?" I didn't say they did. "Are they all racists?" I didn't say they were. "Do they fly the flag as a support for the days of slavery, or is there another reason?" Perhaps you should re-read what I DID say, and be less concerned about what I DIDN'T say.
I read what you stated. My questions were meant to highlight other perceptions and attachments to the flag other then what you stated. Calling it a symbol of hate denigrates those who grew up with that flag and those who view the war as one for states rights more then for slavery. -DD |
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Post by warrior1972 on Jul 6, 2015 18:21:44 GMT -8
"Uh huh, and do these views apply to those who support the flag today?" I didn't say they did. "Are they all racists?" I didn't say they were. "Do they fly the flag as a support for the days of slavery, or is there another reason?" Perhaps you should re-read what I DID say, and be less concerned about what I DIDN'T say.
I read what you stated. My questions were meant to highlight other perceptions and attachments to the flag other then what you stated. Calling it a symbol of hate denigrates those who grew up with that flag and those who view the war as one for states rights more then for slavery. -DD "States Rights"? Yes, I'm sure. For those who don't understand, no explanation is possible.
For those who do understand, no explanation is necessary.
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Post by dustdevil28 on Jul 6, 2015 21:03:02 GMT -8
Since it wasn't understood the first time I'll repost it.
Uh huh, and do these views apply to those who support the flag today? Are they all racists? Do they fly the flag as a support for the days of slavery, or is there another reason?
I doubt anyone told you to like or care for the flag, but they probably tried to educate you as to why THEY cared for it.
-DD
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Post by warrior1972 on Jul 7, 2015 3:54:48 GMT -8
Since it wasn't understood the first time I'll repost it. Uh huh, and do these views apply to those who support the flag today? Are they all racists? Do they fly the flag as a support for the days of slavery, or is there another reason?
I doubt anyone told you to like or care for the flag, but they probably tried to educate you as to why THEY cared for it.
-DDIt was understood. And so is the Confederacy. At least, as much as it needs to be.
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