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Post by warrior1972 on Jul 9, 2015 15:50:14 GMT -8
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Post by Sailor on Jul 9, 2015 17:04:13 GMT -8
Yep, raised in defiance to the Civil Rights movement among other things.
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Post by dustdevil28 on Jul 9, 2015 19:10:31 GMT -8
Yep, raised in defiance to the Civil Rights movement among other things. Which doesn't help their argument against the flag as a symbol for racism. -DD |
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Post by warrior1972 on Jul 10, 2015 1:34:27 GMT -8
Yep, raised in defiance to the Civil Rights movement among other things. Which doesn't help their argument against the flag as a symbol for racism. -DD . The debates are going to be going on for another century, Dustdevil. I guarantee it. |
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Post by 101ABN on Jul 10, 2015 8:57:16 GMT -8
A couple of points that have been given little air in the controversy.
A. It's NOT the Confederate national flag, it's the "battle flag" first adopted by the Army of Northern Virginia because the national flag (THE Stars and Bars") was too similar to the Union flag and was confusing amid the smoke and dust of battle.
B. The flag was removed from the SC statehouse from which it was flown 15 years ago and placed at another site on the capital grounds.
C. The site where it was moved is a Confederate WAR MEMORIAL. It was removed from THIS site today.
Regardless of one's feeling about the flag itself, it should give cause for concern when we start banning symbols of our own history, not just from state capitol grounds but from all public display including the cemeteries where Confederate dead are interred.
I have a nagging feeling that the next target will be the memorials themselves.
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Post by warrior1972 on Jul 11, 2015 3:20:51 GMT -8
A couple of points that have been given little air in the controversy. A. It's NOT the Confederate national flag, it's the "battle flag" first adopted by the Army of Northern Virginia because the national flag (THE Stars and Bars") was too similar to the Union flag and was confusing amid the smoke and dust of battle. B. The flag was removed from the SC statehouse from which it was flown 15 years ago and placed at another site on the capital grounds. C. The site where it was moved is a Confederate WAR MEMORIAL. It was removed from THIS site today. Regardless of one's feeling about the flag itself, it should give cause for concern when we start banning symbols of our own history, not just from state capitol grounds but from all public display including the cemeteries where Confederate dead are interred. I have a nagging feeling that the next target will be the memorials themselves. No, not our own history. Confederate history. We need to put a point on that. There's a difference, you know? For some reason, for more than two hundred years, we have chosen to commemorate the largest single act of treason in the history of the United States. If the Confederacy had won, there would not BE a United States as we know it. And all of that is true WITHOUT the Confederacy being the last bastion of slavery.
In practically any other country you can name, after the surrender, the leaders of the Confederacy, Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee, etc., would have been summarily executed. This country, however, went to incredible lengths to insure that afterwards, there would be a healing. Immediately after the cessation of hostilities, right from the beginning, Confederate soldiers were given rations by Union soldiers, since they were all but starving to death. They were given their small arms to take back to their farms. They were given their horses, since they were coming up on planting season. And we count ALL the casualties of the Civil War, BOTH SIDES, as AMERICAN dead, which is why the Civil War has the higheset casualty count of ANY American war. In short, the Confederacy was givenn the most generous terms possible after four years of committing HIGH TREASON. Abraham Lincoln treated them like Americans. We won't talk about how he was repaid. We've put up monuments, incorporated the Confederate Battle Flag in state flags, and even raised the Confederate Battle flag in front of a state's capitol itself for YEARS. It was orginally raised for a centennial celebration (1861-1961), but it stayed raised for more than HALF A DAMNED CENTURY.
The Confederacy LOST THE WAR, and I, as an American, am damned glad of it. And that's WITHOUT slavery, racism, and being a black American. |
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Post by 101ABN on Jul 11, 2015 8:16:50 GMT -8
It's ALL "our own" history, Warrior, with every wart, wrinkle, scar, and blemish.
All of it.
Banning flags from war memorials, renaming schools and public parkways, and exhuming Confederate generals changes none of it.
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Post by Sailor on Jul 11, 2015 8:25:31 GMT -8
1. It IS part of our history just as the Revolution, Whiskey Rebellion, War of 1812 and so on were. No amount of revisionism can change that.
2. The Federal government was often looked at back then in the same light as we today consider the United Nations. Lee and most of the others decided the Federal government was wrong to make war against the states which were attempting to exercise their rights under the Constitution as it was understood at the time to split off and go their own way. Thus they decided to resign their commissions and offer their services to their home states. If they UN decided to deploy an Army of Blue Helmets against our nation and homes, how would you expect the population to respond. I'd be all for responding with "powder and shot."
3.These men under the standards of the time were considered patriots. As I understand it West Point graduates swore oaths of allegence to their states first and only secondarily to the Federal Government. Many of them including R E Lee turned in exemplary service to the United States both prior to and later after the Civil War. Nathanial Bedford Forrest, one of the more controversial Southern Army Generals, offered his services to General Sherman during the Virginious Affair in 1873 when war with Spain appeared a likely possibility. Hardly the action of a traitor. Now the Mayor of Memphis wants to dig him up and remove his wife and him from the park where they are buried. The only things stopping that are the necessary court order for exhumation and permission from Forrest's family.
4. Lincoln was assassinated by a gunman acting as part of a plot by 3 or 4, all but 1 of the others chickened out. Lee was offered the opportunity to continue to lead an "army" of diehards in a guerrilla war to try to keep the Confederacy alive. He quashed that idea fast and the band of guerrillas died before it was really born. Again, hardly the action of a traitor.
5. It is possible to hold one's foes in respect for the courage and honor they showed.
6. The South Carolina flag flap originated when racists controlling the state government voted to raise the Confederate Battle Flag over the statehouse with the governor signing that bill into law. I don't think I need to remind you of who they were or why they decided to do it.
7. How far back do the revisionists wish to go with their "cleansing" of our history? All the way back to the day that Dutch slave ship touched in the British colonies and traded part of his cargo for supplies and trade goods? History is history and is in the past. History can only be rewritten, it cannot be made to "unhappen" but it can happen again if we forget it and why those events happened.
8. There is even a proposal to refuse to decorate the graves of Confederate dead in National Cemetaries with the Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia one damn day a year as is done now. Soviets/Russians who are buried in cemetaries on US government establishments, including the grounds of the Naval Hospital here in Portsmouth VA were treated better than that despite the Soviets having been our enemy for nearly 50 years. I think you'll find that the graves of British dead from the War of 1812 are also treated with more respect.
How much will be enough? Let the past and the dead rest in peace.
I think I've ranted and vented enough.
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Post by warrior1972 on Jul 11, 2015 9:26:52 GMT -8
1. It IS part of our history just as the Revolution, Whiskey Rebellion, War of 1812 and so on were. No amount of revisionism can change that. 2. The Federal government was often looked at back then in the same light as we today consider the United Nations. Lee and most of the others decided the Federal government was wrong to make war against the states which were attempting to exercise their rights under the Constitution as it was understood at the time to split off and go their own way. Thus they decided to resign their commissions and offer their services to their home states. If they UN decided to deploy an Army of Blue Helmets against our nation and homes, how would you expect the population to respond. I'd be all for responding with "powder and shot." 3.These men under the standards of the time were considered patriots. As I understand it West Point graduates swore oaths of allegence to their states first and only secondarily to the Federal Government. Many of them including R E Lee turned in exemplary service to the United States both prior to and later after the Civil War. Nathanial Bedford Forrest, one of the more controversial Southern Army Generals, offered his services to General Sherman during the Virginious Affair in 1873 when war with Spain appeared a likely possibility. Hardly the action of a traitor. Now the Mayor of Memphis wants to dig him up and remove his wife and him from the park where they are buried. The only things stopping that are the necessary court order for exhumation and permission from Forrest's family. 4. Lincoln was assassinated by a gunman acting as part of a plot by 3 or 4, all but 1 of the others chickened out. Lee was offered the opportunity to continue to lead an "army" of diehards in a guerrilla war to try to keep the Confederacy alive. He quashed that idea fast and the band of guerrillas died before it was really born. Again, hardly the action of a traitor. 5. It is possible to hold one's foes in respect for the courage and honor they showed. 6. The South Carolina flag flap originated when racists controlling the state government voted to raise the Confederate Battle Flag over the statehouse with the governor signing that bill into law. I don't think I need to remind you of who they were or why they decided to do it. 7. How far back do the revisionists wish to go with their "cleansing" of our history? All the way back to the day that Dutch slave ship touched in the British colonies and traded part of his cargo for supplies and trade goods? History is history and is in the past. History can only be rewritten, it cannot be made to "unhappen" but it can happen again if we forget it and why those events happened. 8. There is even a proposal to refuse to decorate the graves of Confederate dead in National Cemetaries with the Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia one damn day a year as is done now. Soviets/Russians who are buried in cemetaries on US government establishments, including the grounds of the Naval Hospital here in Portsmouth VA were treated better than that despite the Soviets having been our enemy for nearly 50 years. I think you'll find that the graves of British dead from the War of 1812 are also treated with more respect. How much will be enough? Let the past and the dead rest in peace. I think I've ranted and vented enough. Yeah? Slavery is ALSO part of our history.
They tore my country apart from bow to stern, and enslaved my ancestors for centuries. They were traitors AND slavemasters. You were talking about Russians buried in in cemetaries on US government soil? My father was trained at Tuskegee Institute during World War II, and German prisoners of war got better treatment than Tuskegee Airmen did. They ate first, and ate better. They sat in the front when movies were shown, and he sat in the back. And on, and on, and on. I can go on for PARAGAPHS. In short, ENEMY SOLDIERS DURING THE WAR IN ALABAMA GOT BETTER TREATMENT THAN BLACK OFFICER CADETS, AKA THE TUSKEGEE AIRMEN. That's a few EXAMPLES.
And GOD, I sure as HELL could go on.
Don't expect me to forgive OR forget. That would be a lot like a Jew "forgiving and forgetting" the Third Reich. Sorry. I won't argue any more, but it will be a cold day in hell when I "accept" the Confederacy. That's as close as I can get to "letting bygones be bygones". |
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Post by 101ABN on Jul 11, 2015 12:18:25 GMT -8
"How much will be enough? Let the past and the dead rest in peace."
Agreed.
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