Unhappy campers: The Republicans' base is mad.

[101ABN]

Let me start here, where I left off this morning.

"Yes if I don't want to, I've the right to say no.

Ya it would, my social security number is no ones business and I can not be forced to produce it. In fact it is against the law for any one to require it as identification, even though that is how it is used. I have the right to tell a police officer to piss off if he asks for id if I haven't done anything wrong, and I have done just that in the past."

Sorry Pal, you're missing the point here. While you can't be forced to produce an SS card, your employer is required to visually examine certain documents that determine your eligibility to work in this country.

www.uscis.gov/graphics/formsfee/forms/files/i-9.pdf

On the second page you will see the list of forms that can be used.

Whether or not you like it, Cameron, this is the law and we should fine the living hell out of any employer who isn't following it. Why? My personal reasons? Because I'm a fucking American combat veteran who bled for this country in a fucking unpopular war. If I have to prove my eligibility to work here, so does every-fucking-body else. It's called equal protection under the LAW.

'I don't get what's so fucking hard about distinguishing between true criminals and those who in many cases risk there lives to come here to escape poverty, and provide for themselves and their families. Yes please lets not make any distinctions between real criminals, and a child who steals a loaf of bread to feed himself. It is strange to me to hear conservatives be such blind law-worshipers. I would have thought here of all places, there would be those that understand that the law itself has no intrinsic value, it is what the law prohibits that is either good/bad.'

This is one of the dumbest arguments i've heard on the subject. These aren't "children stealing loaves of bread. " Lets ramp it up a notch, shall we?

By your logic it would be perfectly OK for someone to steal a car to go to work to feed his family. The principle is the same, the only difference is the value of the stolen item. You want not only to forgive them for stealing the car (after all, they only did it to feed their families), you want to let them keep it too, while others pay for the gas and insurance.

"It's inconvenient? Tough shit!"

"Bite me"

I can personally promise you that twelve million illegal aliens will be elected to Congress before that ever happens.

And every asshole caught with a fake ID ought to get a year of hard time prior to deportation and every asshole selling fake IDs (a HUGE industry in greater L.A.) ought to be looking at 10 years.

"How long did it take Hitler to round up 6 million Jews? I'm sure we could be much more efficient."

One fucking thing that is totally uncalled for is the "Hitler" bullshit.

First off, the Jews were (largely) German citizens in their own country, not CRIMINAL aliens who broke the law to be there by sneaking in under cover of darkness

Secondly, you seem to "gone moonbat" yourself, here Cameron. Are you in the fake ID business? Maybe you're into trafficking in human cargo? It sure as hell sounds like it when you turn a call to enforce the law into Third Reich analogies that simply don't fit.
It's a lame analogy. those who wish to enforce the law are not de facto storm troopers, brown-shirters or other advocates of a police state. It's a bad analogy, meant only to insult.

You're entitled to your opinion, Cameron, but frankly, I think you're full of shit as a country goose on this one.

[cameron]

mario said:

So now we want a war on illegals do we? When are we ever going to learn to work with market forces and not against them?

Market forces?? What the hell is that supposed to mean relative to the illegal invasion taking place at our southern border.

Spare me the over wrought hyperbole and rhetoric. There is no invasion force storming the borders. There are people crossing our borders to gain ready employment. It's that supply and demand thing, you must have read a little about that at school, no?

mario said:

How did the "war on alcohol" go? Oh that's right we gave up on that one. Well how about the war on poverty? Ya that worked out real well. Oh lets not forget the “war on drugs” that one is sure to be successful. I mean we've only been at that one for what 30 years or so with no sign of success in sight.

This is a bunch of nonsense which has nothing to do with anything being discussed here.

It has every thing to do with what is being discussed here. What is nonsense is your refusal to recognize the market forces involved in this issue. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt eh?

mario said:

The fact is there is a market here for labor that they provide, and the fact that we are, for all intense and purposes at full employment, put the lie to the fact that they are taking jobs away from Americans. Most of these people are hard working law abiding salt of the earth decent human beings! They are a net asset not a net liability. Lets secure the border, but lets be honest about the vast of majority of those that are here already. And lets be honest about the contributions they make.

A market for their labor?? Apparently not all of them, since they occupy our prisons for crimes against American citizens, hospitals for free treatment, clog our schools, don't pay taxes, etc.

Mario I really thought you knew better then to go off half-cocked on me. Go check your facts, most of the crime that they do commit is against other immigrants. That's something that has been going on in immigrant populations in this nation from the start. The overwhelming vast majority are not criminals committing crime and if given a path to legalization would reduce the actual crime they do commit. Jeez this is like talking to Bounce. Go check your facts before getting into a pissing match with me. The Crime rate in this nation has been on a steady decline for years, while the number of illegals entering is increasing. You sound like a bigot not saying you are, just saying you sound like one.

mario said:

This is a path towards destruction of this country.

More mindless histrionics? Facts and arguments Mario save this crap for you school yard friends.

mario said:

Many do come here to work. Many send most of that money back to Mexico.

So what? it's their money they earned it, you think they are being hired at a loss? They spend most of it here, even though they do in fact send much home, but hey it's their money they earned it. This is like talking to a Lib about the rich, what do you care? it's not coming out of your pocket!

mario said:

There ARE net liability, whether you choose to admit it or not.

Oh is that so then why don't you produce some facts?

mario said:

Is there no market for the labor of teenagers, especially young blacks?

Facts Mario, not regurgitated populist tripe.




The last job I quite was because of a lazy American born kid. Kept telling the Boss don't put the kid on with me on Sundays when it's real crazy in here I'm not going to carry him. Sundays was time and a half but real bizzy. The Boss kept putting the kid on with me so I quite. If it wasn't a union shop the kid would have been gone. I've worked with a lot of kids and not all but a great many of them aren't worth spit. I suppose that's those dirty Mexicans fault too.

mario said:

If you can’t keep contraband out of a prison due to market forces what makes you think you can seal our southern border without recognizing we need the labor they provide as much as they need the jobs we provide? It is not realistic and it's not going to work.

It's realistic and it will work if we want it to you. You want to throw your arms up and say we "need" these people and we can't seal the border.

No, it is unrealistic and due to market forces involved, it will never work. Ya that's me all over, first sign of trouble and I throw my hands up and bail. Who are you trying to convince, me or yourself? I never give Mario, I just happen to think your all wet, but I haven't given up trying to convince you to stop being an angry reactionary. We can't stop commodities that are in demand from getting into maximum security prisons, but sealing a border should be a whole lot easier, rrrriiiigghht, I know a bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in.

mario said:

Bullshit. We have illegals invading our country, draining our hospitals resources, clogging our schools, killing Americans citizens, clogging our prisons, bringing diseases, and destroying the Americans way of life.

OMG sounds like a pestilence of biblical proportions. Save the populist tripe for your next meeting with O'reily. Goes no where with me. The over whelming number of them work hard stay out of trouble and pay ss taxes they never plan to collect. The bad apples among them could easily be sent packing, if we adopt some realistic policies. Your way and nothing is going to change, except to drive the multi-billion dollar underground economy, further underground and out of reach.

mario said:

I have no problem with Mexicans legally coming to this country to work. But I have no respect for the deliberate violation of our immigration laws.

Mario lets face the problem head on, and not pretend that our delicate sensibilities have been bruised because they didn't go through legitimate channels. That's the problem, if they went legit they would never be allowed in. You want to fix the problem great, lets reform the law so that they can go through legal channels.

mario said:

For crying out loud this is basic stuff that conservatives should have a working understanding of. The vast majority of these "illegals" work for small business not large corporations.

Yeah, and??

We have many unemployed Americans and teenagers who can do the work. Or Mexicans could come here legally and work for those businesses.

If we reform the immigration laws then we could get them here legally to do the jobs. The unemployed teenagers are I am sorry to say likely to stay that way. If you happen to know any teens around here that need a job send them this way Mario. There are help wanted signs up all over the place here in Huntington.

mario said:

The only way you could enforce the law is to turn the country into a police state and that is not going to happen, so all you are going to do is increase the size of the underground economy, and not fix the problem. We have real enemies to worry about and they don't happen to be some dirt poor peasant trying to do whatever he can to put food on the table. Our real enemies must be laughing at our stupidity. I'm going to tell you, I'm not suggesting anyone here is a racist, but an awful lot of what I hear some conservatives say is starting to sound a lot like racism to me.

Please, because we want our damn laws enforced??

Becuase we want our hospitals to stay in operation??

Because we want our schools to be safe and not clogged with illegals??

Because we want crimes against American citizens by illegals to end??

Because we want to save our tax dollars from hosuing illegals in our prisons??

Because we want an end to all of these illegal immigrant gangs polluting our cities in the Southwest??

Come on, get real.

I'm trying to convince you to get real, none of these problems will be solved because first, your solution is never going to work because it's not capable of solving the problem, and second, it's never going to happen. Never in the history of man has a prohibition on a commodity no matter what it was ever prevented the commodity from reaching the market. Ever in the entire history of man! Prohibitions always fail and only serve to create underground economies and black markets. I don't care how determined you are, you are destine to fail. It is preordained and written in the stars.

mario said:

Oh ya and those who say they are going to punish the Republicans by staying home this fall. Great idea, it's not like I didn't see this coming I did and said so in this very form. I should go look through my old posts. Anyway just like the moonbats, holding a gun to your own head and promising to pull the trigger, brilliant absolutely brilliant. If were are lucky it give the Democrats enough momentum to get Hillary elected in 08, OOPS.

Please. Most Conservatives are pissed off at Bush. They have no problem with the House Republicans, who are standing tough on this issue, thank God.

You think so huh, wait and see reality has a way of making itself known.

mario said:

It's the liberal Republicans in the Senate who piss many Conservatives off.

The liberal Republicans in the Senate piss me off. I supported Steve Laffey, Lincoln Chafee's primary challengers and did not contribute to the Senate re-elect committee because they backed Chafee. No one is more pissed with liberal Republicans than I am. I suggested a long time ago there be a purge of the party .

mario said:

BTW: Who knows how Conservatives will react later this year. But a Democratic Senate would likely be a good thing for a Republican Presidential candidate in 2008.

Mario listen to yourself this is boilerplate Democratic talking points and has been since Reagan. You don't strengthen your position by losing an election. For crying out loud you sound like CRW. "All we need to do is nothing once the electorate see how horrible and ugly they are, they will vote us back into office. This is Pablum for the masses of sheep. You are never stronger for having lost an election cycle.

mario said:

However, it's to early to say what's going to occur with elections later this year.

Not if the conservative base keeps acting they way they are, or saying and thinking the stupid things they are saying and thinking. We will teach them a lesson, watch me cut of my nose to spite my face, that will teach those liberal Republicans a lesson. If the Conservative base sits this election out they are ceding control of the party to the "moderates" The argument will be made that the Republican party needs to forgo trying to appease the "radical right" and make a more broad based appeal to the electorate. Mario I know what I'm talking about, I been following politics in this country from the time I was a child before even moving here, like some people follow sports

mario said:

Oh and don't try to sell me we can win by losing BS you sound just like a Dumbocrat.

I'll pretend I didn't read that.

I was not trying to insult you Mario just trying to point out just how insanely stupid the idea that you can win by losing is. Here is a link to a flow chart that demonstrates the point nicely.


It's a PDF file

[cameron]

You know this reminds me when I first joined the OIF board and was fending of moonbats from all directions. Not calling you a moonbat 101 just saying that's what it reminds of. I'm tired and really missed you today. It was you I wanted to have this out with anyway. You know my first principles. You may think I am as full of shit as a country goose on this, from my vantage point it looks like all my fellow Conservative buddies are running for the cliffs like a bunch of lemmings with me trying desperately to stop the carnage. I'm too tired right now but will reply to your posted attempt to put me straight tomorrow.

Respectfully
Cam

[101ABN]

Who supports amnesty, Cameron?

Here's who.

www.internationalanswer.org/

www.worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

www.cpusa.org/

Them, and you.

So if you want to stand with every communist on the planet and call me a Nazi then go for it but they can't keep the car, Cameron.

It's my fucking car and I want it back.

[cameron]

OMG I did not call you a NAZI jeez Louise. I was trying to make the point as bluntly as I possible could that the only way to enforce what you want to have enforced would be to turn the country into a police state. You think arresting one or two employers of illegals will do the trick. Nope your going to need to be able to make it a credible threat that any one who hires an illegal will go to jail. There are millions of small business the only way to make that threat credible would require turning the country into a police state. Please I'm not some moonbat calling others I disagree with Nazi's.

I do not support amnesty you for your part have decided that anything that is not exactly what you want (which will not work) is amnesty.

It's our car they are the rubber on the car. You keep telling me we don't need the rubber, the car will run just fine without it. Sorry I disagree.

[MARIO]

Cameron, I'll get to your post tomorrow.

But you really should tread lightly on who you call a liberal.

If anything, you sound harry Howler on this issue. He's over on THC ranting like a leftwing loon about everybody support border security a "racist."

Moreover, that other leftwing crackpot, Senator Dick Durbin, was praising Bush's speech earlier today.

It seems you and he are on the same side.

Right now, Tankey's more Conservative than you on this issue.

But I'll address your post tomorrow.

[101ABN]

What won't work is amnesty, whatever the hell you want to call it. Your "ploice state rhetoric is nonsense. Arresting, one or two employers? Not a chance. One or two thousand? Yes, now were talking. You don't have to physically detain them, either. Fine and release will do just fine.

" Please I'm not some moonbat calling others I disagree with Nazi's. "

Sorry, but you did.

Stop telling me what won't work, Cameron. Enforcing the law will work. How about this? Let's TRY it and see. Take away the bait, and they'll stop coming.

" You keep telling me we don't need the rubber, the car will run just fine without it."

No, you misunderstood.

Rubber is fine, It's the carjackers we don't need.

[cameron]

admin said:

What won't work is amnesty, whatever the hell you want to call it. Your "ploice state rhetoric is nonsense. Arresting, one or two employers? Not a chance. One or two thousand? Yes, now were talking. You don't have to physically detain them, either. Fine and release will do just fine.

" Please I'm not some moonbat calling others I disagree with Nazi's. "

Sorry, but you did.

Stop telling me what won't work, Cameron. Enforcing the law will work. How about this? Let's TRY it and see. Take away the bait, and they'll stop coming.

" You keep telling me we don't need the rubber, the car will run just fine without it."

No, you misunderstood.

Rubber is fine, It's the carjackers we don't need.

No I did not call you a NAZI I'm sorry you misunderstood I should have been more clear but don't tell me what I meant, I know exactly what I meant. I'll stop telling you it wont work as soon as you can produce an example of a prohibition that has ever in the history of mankind ever been successful. 101 you are going to have to hire and create a huge bureaucracy to credibly enforce your Law. That will cause a backlash against your policies if by some fluke they should ever be adapted. Which by the way they have no chance of being adopted in the first place and even then if they were they would never be enforced. Ever see Man of La Mancha? The thumb sucking political class know this, they're just too chicken shit right now to come right out and say it. Bush had the balls to tell you the truth, even though he knew you weren't going to like it. Suck it up.

[jfree]

Here is the main point Cam, AMERICAN CITIZENS don't want amnesty, they don't want these people to get a free pass. It is only WHAT WE want that matters as this is OUR country not the United States of Mexico. I could frankly care less what a shithole Mexico is, they aren't starving, we aren't talking about North Koreans escaping a murderous blood sucking dictatorship, Mexico is a democracy, it will get better when they get their shit together over there. They have NO right to burn thru my tax money and then spit in my face telling me to bend over and take it while waving the Mexican flag in my face. All I have to say to those people is FUCK OFF.

[101ABN]

"No I did not call you a NAZI I'm sorry you misunderstood I should have been more clear but don't tell me what I meant, I know exactly what I meant."

And I know exactly what you said.

I don't give a rat's ass whether or not you think it will work. You're clearly soft on the issue.

A backlash from whom. The illegals marching in the streets wrapped in the Mexican flag?

Piss on them.

Get some rest, you're talking in circles.

"Suck it up?"

No, I don't think so. YOU suck it up.

[cameron]

mario said:

Cameron, I'll get to your post tomorrow.

But you really should tread lightly on who you call a liberal.

If anything, you sound harry Howler on this issue. He's over on THC ranting like a leftwing loon about everybody support border security a "racist."

Moreover, that other leftwing crackpot, Senator Dick Durbin, was praising Bush's speech earlier today.

It seems you and he are on the same side.

Right now, Tankey's more Conservative than you on this issue.

But I'll address your post tomorrow.

That's great looking forward to being ganged up on by my friends again tomorrow, Wooo hooo!

I did not call you a liberal, I said you were making liberal arguments, and you were. Please, it's hard enough without always needing to clarify my meanings. Let me apologize now for any misunderstandings that we may have tomorrow. Mario I've been reading your posts for years now and I would hope you know I only ever fight the good fight and would not be in opposition to you if I did not think it necessary. I've tried to keep our little family spat out of the THC for the most part. Trust me my passion is heart felt and my goals are pure.

[cameron]

admin said:

"No I did not call you a NAZI I'm sorry you misunderstood I should have been more clear but don't tell me what I meant, I know exactly what I meant."

And I know exactly what you said.

I don't give a rat's ass whether or not you think it will work. You're clearly soft on the issue.

A backlash from whom. The illegals marching in the streets wrapped in the Mexican flag?

Piss on them.

Get some rest, you're talking in circles.

"Suck it up?"

No, I don't think so. YOU suck it up.

A backlash from the rest of the American population Are you intentionaly trying to twist my meanings? And I'am sucking it up all my online friends are angry with me for not towing the party line.

Good night

[cameron]

jfree said:

Here is the main point Cam, AMERICAN CITIZENS don't want amnesty, they don't want these people to get a free pass. It is only WHAT WE want that matters as this is OUR country not the United States of Mexico. I could frankly care less what a shithole Mexico is, they aren't starving, we aren't talking about North Koreans escaping a murderous blood sucking dictatorship, Mexico is a democracy, it will get better when they get their shit together over there. They have NO right to burn thru my tax money and then spit in my face telling me to bend over and take it while waving the Mexican flag in my face. All I have to say to those people is FUCK OFF.

OH you speak for all Americans now do ya Jfree sorry I wasn't informed I want a recount. And what you want to have happen is not going to happen that is what I'm trying to prepare you for. Watch I've not mislead you. Get over your anger and suck it up.

[101ABN]

Let the rest of the American population worry about the backlash from me. I'm not giving my country up to some assholes who think they can sneak in here and then tell us what we have to do for them.

Or to the assholes who support them.

[cameron]

admin said:

Let the rest of the American population worry about the backlash from me. I'm not giving my country up to some assholes who think they can sneak in here and then tell us what we have to do for them.

Or to the assholes who support them.

I feel your pain

Goodnight Sir