Total disappointment in the Church leaders

[mateo]

I was hoping to see a new pope from a third world area like Africa. Perhaps from a nation wear Catholicism and Christianity as a whole is supressed. To add insult to injury, the Church leaders had the audacity to elect a former Hitler Youth. Now, before all the rationalizing begins, hear me out. I understand that service in NAZI Germany was compulsury. You served or you were sent to a camp and/or killed. Is not one of our beliefs as Catholics that those who are persecuted for God's sake shall be saved? Where was Pope Benedict's higher moral authority when he wore the NAZI uniform? I have no doubt that he was never a true believer in NAZI ideaology. I also understand that his father was anti-fascist and anti-NAZI. That still doesn't erase the fact that as someone who is supposed to be the direct representative of Christ on Earth wore a NAZI uniform.

As for me, I don't need priests to talk to God for me. I don't need confesisonal booths and I don't need absolution from a weak mortal. I talk directly to God, for God makes no man better or greater than anyone else.

[FightingFalcon]

Mateo said:

I was hoping to see a new pope from a third world area like Africa. Perhaps from a nation wear Catholicism and Christianity as a whole is supressed. To add insult to injury, the Church leaders had the audacity to elect a former Hitler Youth. Now, before all the rationalizing begins, hear me out. I understand that service in NAZI Germany was compulsury. You served or you were sent to a camp and/or killed. Is not one of our beliefs as Catholics that those who are persecuted for God's sake shall be saved? Where was Pope Benedict's higher moral authority when he wore the NAZI uniform? I have no doubt that he was never a true believer in NAZI ideaology. I also understand that his father was anti-fascist and anti-NAZI. That still doesn't erase the fact that as someone who is supposed to be the direct representative of Christ on Earth wore a NAZI uniform.

As for me, I don't need priests to talk to God for me. I don't need confesisonal booths and I don't need absolution from a weak mortal. I talk directly to God, for God makes no man better or greater than anyone else.

Pope Benedict XVI was I believe 12 or 14 at the time when he enrolled in the Hitler Youth. Not exactly an age to rebel against the awesome power of NAZI Germany.

Furthermore, some of the Church's greatest leaders have come from questionable beginnings. St. Augustine was a pagan and Hedonist who spent his days drinking and having sex. St. Paul was an avid persecutor of the Church and presided over the stoning of many Christians. I don't think I need to remind you about the contributions that these two have made to the Church.

Secondly, as a Catholic you should know that the Cardinals don't "choose" the pope. God Himself chooses who shall be pope and the Cardinals simply try to understand who that choice will be. That's why very little discussion takes place and instead they spend most of the their free time praying. There is no "election" of the pope - its simply a certification of what God has already decided.

[americanpride]

Owen,

Of all tbe diverse situations and subjects that may come to our attention, I think this may be the only one in which we agree, at least to the extent in which Ratzinger should not have been chosen, and this only because of his personal history, not necessarily because of his politics.

However, if the Church was to choose someone from the Third World, which TW country would it be? Each Third World country has such a host of problems that it would have been an act of questionable ethics to choose an individual, any individual, no matter their honors and character, from those regions.

I would have preferred a cardinal from Italy, one who can consolidate the gains of the RCC while not "shaking the boat". A no-namer.

[FightingFalcon]

DarkLordoftheChris said:

Owen,

Of all tbe diverse situations and subjects that may come to our attention, I think this may be the only one in which we agree, at least to the extent in which Ratzinger should not have been chosen, and this only because of his personal history, not necessarily because of his politics.

However, if the Church was to choose someone from the Third World, which TW country would it be? Each Third World country has such a host of problems that it would have been an act of questionable ethics to choose an individual, any individual, no matter their honors and character, from those regions.

I would have preferred a cardinal from Italy, one who can consolidate the gains of the RCC while not "shaking the boat". A no-namer.

Once more - the Church does not choose who will be pope. God does. It's all right there in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Feel free to read it one of these days.

[mateo]

FightingFalcon said:

Pope Benedict XVI was I believe 12 or 14 at the time when he enrolled in the Hitler Youth. Not exactly an age to rebel against the awesome power of NAZI Germany.

Furthermore, some of the Church's greatest leaders have come from questionable beginnings. St. Augustine was a pagan and Hedonist who spent his days drinking and having sex. St. Paul was an avid persecutor of the Church and presided over the stoning of many Christians. I don't think I need to remind you about the contributions that these two have made to the Church.

Secondly, as a Catholic you should know that the Cardinals don't "choose" the pope. God Himself chooses who shall be pope and the Cardinals simply try to understand who that choice will be. That's why very little discussion takes place and instead they spend most of the their free time praying. There is no "election" of the pope - its simply a certification of what God has already decided.

God does not choose the Pope. Men choose the Pope. It's all a dog and pony show. My own relationship directly with God is all that matters.

[FightingFalcon]

Mateo said:

God does not choose the Pope. Men choose the Pope. It's all a dog and pony show. My own relationship directly with God is all that matters.

Feel free to believe that but that is not what the RCC teaches. Men have no say over who will be pope. It has all been decided way before we were even born.

As for the second part of your post, you're exactly right. In the end, it will just be you and God on Judgment Day. That's why I answer to no one else.

[mateo]

FightingFalcon said:

Once more - the Church does not choose who will be pope. God does. It's all right there in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Feel free to read it one of these days.

I did fucking read it! I went to 13 years of Catholic school and have spent the last ten years of my life locked in an internal struggle to try and understand just what is part of God's plan and what isn't. I don't give a shit what's in the catechism. If man wrote it, it's fallable.

[mateo]

FightingFalcon said:

Feel free to believe that but that is not what the RCC teaches. Men have no say over who will be pope. It has all been decided way before we were even born.

Oh, shit James. You put it so simply, how can I argue with that. Spare me James. God is everywhere. He doesn't live in the Vatican.

[FightingFalcon]

Mateo said:

I did fucking read it! I went to 13 years of Catholic school and have spent the last ten years of my life locked in an internal struggle to try and understand just what is part of God's plan and what isn't. I don't give a shit what's in the catechism. If man wrote it, it's fallable.

Owen, don't act like you are the only person who has ever gone through a religious struggle. The past few years have been especially hard on me too and I'm not even sure what exactly I believe in anymore.

However, I too went to Catholic school and have been studying Theology for as long as I can remember. It would be my other Major if my school offered more interesting religion courses.

I'm not sure if the Catechism is infallible or not - I believe however that it was written by a Catholic Dogmatic Council which means that it would be infallible.

[FightingFalcon]

Mateo said:

Oh, shit James. You put it so simply, how can I argue with that. Spare me James. God is everywhere. He doesn't live in the Vatican.

No, but He does work through the Vatican. The RCC was, after all, established by Christ at the Last Supper.

Surely you know that...

[mateo]

DarkLordoftheChris said:

However, if the Church was to choose someone from the Third World, which TW country would it be? Each Third World country has such a host of problems that it would have been an act of questionable ethics to choose an individual, any individual, no matter their honors and character, from those regions.

There's certainly a dilema there. The biggest reason I wanted to see a pope from a Thrid World country where Christianity is supressed would be so that pressure could be put on those countries to shape up. Look at Pope John Paul's influence on communism. the pope is a powerful man.

[mateo]

FightingFalcon said:

No, but He does work through the Vatican. The RCC was, after all, established by Christ at the Last Supper.

Surely you know that...

Oh, it was? Do me a favor and tell me where in the bible Jesus announces his plans to establish the Roman Catholic Church. Jesus was a Jew! He died a Jew! the last supper was the friggin Passover meal!

[FightingFalcon]

Mateo said:

Oh, it was? Do me a favor and tell me where in the bible Jesus announces his plans to establish the Roman Catholic Church. Jesus was a Jew! He died a Jew! the last supper was the friggin Passover meal!

I don't have to remind you of when Christ refers to St. Peter as the rock which He will build His Church on, right? I'm assuming you know that passage.

[mateo]

FightingFalcon said:

I don't have to remind you of when Christ refers to St. Peter as the rock which He will build His Church on, right? I'm assuming you know that passage.

Yes, but where does he say the "Roman Catholic Church"

[FightingFalcon]

Mateo said:

Yes, but where does he say the "Roman Catholic Church"

It doesn't. But it is implied since Jesus personally picks St. Peter who then goes to Rome, establishes the Roman Catholic Church, becomes pope and is martyred.

The catholic (small c) church was established right after Christ's death by His followers. This church is frequently talked about in the NT and I can quote it for you if you want. What St. Peter did was officially give this church a capital and organization. His efforts became known as the RCC.