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Post by americanpride on Jul 17, 2005 5:32:03 GMT -8
Not too long ago, I stated that I was joining the masons. And I was. I had everything squared away to enter the so-called brotherhood. But a few days ago, I decided against it - and not for reasons of my family and I being Roman Catholic.
I decided against it because I realized the falsehood of "faith" (or any belief in any object) without "works". After observing a number of the members of the lodge in which I was to join, I was disgusted.
I am a firm believer that an individual's actions is a reflection of his faith and beliefs - that if a man TRULY believes in say, chivalry, this will be reflected in his actions. If a man acts contrary to his beliefs in anyway whatsoever he is simply being dishonest. We cannot seperate the action from its cause - the values, thoughts, and intentions of the individual. And the failure to act according to one's beliefs is a failure of faith.
This I did not see in the masons here - nor do I see it in very many people in any field or endeavor.
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Post by Husky23 on Jul 17, 2005 5:40:41 GMT -8
Not too long ago, I stated that I was joining the masons. And I was. I had everything squared away to enter the so-called brotherhood. But a few days ago, I decided against it - and not for reasons of my family and I being Roman Catholic. I decided against it because I realized the falsehood of "faith" (or any belief in any object) without "works". After observing a number of the members of the lodge in which I was to join, I was disgusted. I am a firm believer that an individual's actions is a reflection of his faith and beliefs - that if a man TRULY believes in say, chivalry, this will be reflected in his actions. If a man acts contrary to his beliefs in anyway whatsoever he is simply being dishonest. We cannot seperate the action from its cause - the values, thoughts, and intentions of the individual. And the failure to act according to one's beliefs is a failure of faith. This I did not see in the masons here - nor do I see it in very many people in any field or endeavor. Welcome to the human race. |
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Post by americanpride on Jul 17, 2005 6:32:29 GMT -8
Not too long ago, I stated that I was joining the masons. And I was. I had everything squared away to enter the so-called brotherhood. But a few days ago, I decided against it - and not for reasons of my family and I being Roman Catholic. I decided against it because I realized the falsehood of "faith" (or any belief in any object) without "works". After observing a number of the members of the lodge in which I was to join, I was disgusted. I am a firm believer that an individual's actions is a reflection of his faith and beliefs - that if a man TRULY believes in say, chivalry, this will be reflected in his actions. If a man acts contrary to his beliefs in anyway whatsoever he is simply being dishonest. We cannot seperate the action from its cause - the values, thoughts, and intentions of the individual. And the failure to act according to one's beliefs is a failure of faith. This I did not see in the masons here - nor do I see it in very many people in any field or endeavor. Welcome to the human race. It's not that it's newly discovered - I suppose I was disappointed in the lack of Virtue I thought I would find in the masons. |
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Post by Husky23 on Jul 17, 2005 6:40:19 GMT -8
Welcome to the human race. It's not that it's newly discovered - I suppose I was disappointed in the lack of Virtue I thought I would find in the masons. I find I'm disappointed in man (I'm not mutually excluded here) a good portion of the time. Its a wonder God allows us to continue. |
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Post by 101ABN on Jul 17, 2005 8:10:46 GMT -8
God knows we're still a work in progress.
Someone once said, "Never have heroes, it diminishes you." I struggled against that one for a long time, before I really grasped it's meaning. It applies to groups as well as individuals.
Chris, you are abolutely correct that people's actions reflect their values far more than their public positions and posture.
This, you'll recall, was Jesus' issue with the Pharisees.
That said, one of my favorite quotes is from motivational guru Zig Zieglar. It seems someone told hin he was no longer going to church because there were so many hypocrites there. Zig's response went something like this, "Son, that's your choice, but please tell me why you're so willing to let a few hypocrites stand between you and God."
Living your values...It's where it's at.
Regards
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Post by FightingFalcon on Jul 17, 2005 12:07:01 GMT -8
It's not that it's newly discovered - I suppose I was disappointed in the lack of Virtue I thought I would find in the masons. I find I'm disappointed in man (I'm not mutually excluded here) a good portion of the time. Its a wonder God allows us to continue. Because of my Theological and History studies, I have become a firm believer in the inherent evil of mankind. Husky I'm with you on this one - I'm surprised humans have been allowed to exist even this long. Many intellectuals see human progression as a linear path towards enlightenment and a better civilization. To me, humanity is in many ways worse off than the "barbarians" of the past. Today, we have the means and the ability to stop genocide around the world but choose not to. People actually argue against helping out others, e.g. Iraq, Somalia, Sudan, etc. The entire human race disgusts me. Chris - you are absolutely right on this one. That is why the RCC is a firm believer in good works. However, it is also the opposite way around. Good works without faith are just "filthy rags before God" as the Bible says. But Jesus told us many times that through someone's actions will you know what they are truly like. Words are one thing but if they aren't followed up with action then they are meaningless. Non-Catholics (Protestants especially) like to argue that Catholics believe you can "work your way into Heaven". But that really doesn't make any sense. Inherent to every Christian should be the desire to help out his fellow man. Catholics don't consider good works to be separate from faith - it is all part of believing in Christ's message. Believing that Christ rose from the dead and helping out your fellow man are both inherent in the Catholic religion. You cannot separate the two. And that's why I get really angry when Protestants to try tell me that Catholics think that you can work your way into Heaven. They just don't know anything about Catholicism. Wow, kinda went off on a rant there. Sorry bout that  |
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Post by americanpride on Jul 17, 2005 13:33:09 GMT -8
James,
I had a debate with my Protestant friend Dan - you know him from our failed attempt to play EUII. He tried arguing that the action is independent of the cause; i.e. values, etc. I told him that's absurd - a good man in truth would act like a good man. A honest man in truth will display honesty in action. And so on. It only follows that a Christian in truth would have his Christian-ness reflected in his actions.
I reject Protestantism because it is simply absurd that faith alone will save you; that faith has no bearing on one's actions. You either are a Christian in faith and act - or you're not.
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Post by FightingFalcon on Jul 17, 2005 14:43:53 GMT -8
James, I had a debate with my Protestant friend Dan - you know him from our failed attempt to play EUII. He tried arguing that the action is independent of the cause; i.e. values, etc. I told him that's absurd - a good man in truth would act like a good man. A honest man in truth will display honesty in action. And so on. It only follows that a Christian in truth would have his Christian-ness reflected in his actions. I reject Protestantism because it is simply absurd that faith alone will save you; that faith has no bearing on one's actions. You either are a Christian in faith and act - or you're not. Exactly - good works are inherent to every Christian. It is part of being "Christ-like". You can't fully accept Christ and His teachings yet refuse to help anyone. If you can honestly not feel bad for people suffering from genocide then you haven't become a Christian yet. Some Christians (but mostly non-Christians) also try to argue that "good people" should go to Heaven even if they don't believe in God. Well, that doesn't make any sense. What is a "good person"? Everyone who sins is evil and the only way to get rid of your sin is through Christ. So while we may think that Ghandi was a "good person", ultimately it doesn't matter if he didn't accept Christ. Of course, God has the ultimate say in anyone's judgment but the Bible clearly tells us that only through Christ can you be saved. It isn't that hard of a concept to grasp. |
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Post by cameron on Jul 19, 2005 10:35:20 GMT -8
James, I had a debate with my Protestant friend Dan - you know him from our failed attempt to play EUII. He tried arguing that the action is independent of the cause; i.e. values, etc. I told him that's absurd - a good man in truth would act like a good man. A honest man in truth will display honesty in action. And so on. It only follows that a Christian in truth would have his Christian-ness reflected in his actions. I reject Protestantism because it is simply absurd that faith alone will save you; that faith has no bearing on one's actions. You either are a Christian in faith and act - or you're not. Exactly - good works are inherent to every Christian. It is part of being "Christ-like". You can't fully accept Christ and His teachings yet refuse to help anyone. If you can honestly not feel bad for people suffering from genocide then you haven't become a Christian yet. Some Christians (but mostly non-Christians) also try to argue that "good people" should go to Heaven even if they don't believe in God. Well, that doesn't make any sense. What is a "good person"? Everyone who sins is evil and the only way to get rid of your sin is through Christ. So while we may think that Ghandi was a "good person", ultimately it doesn't matter if he didn't accept Christ. Of course, God has the ultimate say in anyone's judgment but the Bible clearly tells us that only through Christ can you be saved. It isn't that hard of a concept to grasp. Luke 6:43-49 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. |
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