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Post by FightingFalcon on Jan 19, 2007 5:55:38 GMT -8
I'm sorry - I just have a hard time believing you when you can't even get the gender of the author correct. I mean, I know people lie over the internet but this is just ridiculous. Could you even tell me, without looking it up on the internet, what books Rand wrote and what they mean?
You're partially correct because morality does come from God. But morality also comes from our Mind and its our basic human instincts and desires. Desires that have been suppressed by religion for thousands of years in an attempt to change who we are. The type of morality that comes from God is evil and preaches that man is worthless and inherently evil. There is nothing uplifting about Christianity, which holds that only the weak and lazy will amount to anything in the afterlife. I would love to see a society that is truly dedicated to the ideals of Christianity. It would probably look something like Cuba.
You mean Individuals brought those things - not Christianity. Christianity has tried to stop all human progression since its inception. Knowledge is evil and advocating anything against the Church would be met with ex-communication and death.
As for the Soviet Union - it's funny because the Soviet Union was an example of the Heaven that Christians seek. The intelligent have been removed, leaving only the lazy and meek. Everyone is equal and no one has a chance to be better than anyone else. I'm surprised why so many Christians hated the Soviet Union because THAT is what your Heaven will look like.
Even if I did believe in Lucifer (aka the Light-Bringer) and/or God, I would surely agree with Lucifer's position on Knowledge. I will never be able to accept the fact that the reason why Adam and Eve were banned is for seeking Knowledge. It always confused me why Lucifer should be the Light-Bringer and not God. Perhaps that's because God does not seek to bring Light to his people?
Yes, I believe in something. Something much more powerful than your non-existent God.
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Post by cataracts on Jan 20, 2007 20:03:57 GMT -8
FF,
Sorry I got Ayn's gender incorrect. I always thought she was female and then someone told me she was actually a male. I had never seen a picture of her and I had never heard of the name Ayn. Her name is as strange as she is.
Is your middle name "Satan". After reading what you wrote about Christianity only Satan could have come up with something as hateful and full of lies.
By the way FF, where in the world did you learn your history? You have said some of stupidest things I have ever read. Are you pulling my leg? Are you saying this as a joke? If you are serious you are one of the most gullible people I have ever read. Who's filling your gray matter?
The first book of hers that I read was Atlas Shrugged and after that it was The Fountainhead. I wasted a lot of good time on that shizoid B....ch.
Cataracts
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Post by FightingFalcon on Jan 21, 2007 7:43:27 GMT -8
Funny - instead of refuting anything I say, you simply go to personal attacks.
As for my History - I learned it at GWU, ranked #51 out of all colleges in the country. I'll be graduating with Honors and a 3.75 GPA in my History classes. I also have a concentration in Classical Humanities.
The irony of a close-minded slave to religion calling ME gullible.....haha I love it.
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Post by AmericanPride on Jan 22, 2007 8:33:12 GMT -8
James -- a few points. Morality does not come from Man. Morality only comes from God. Our understanding of morality varies and changes based upon human experiences, instincts, and desires. But these do not fundamentally change morality. That is not entirely accurate. The Roman Church -- of which I am a fan, naturally  -- has been a principal actor in the development of our understanding of morality, of philosophy and government, technology, and humanities. The Church remains the single largest humanitarian organization in the world. The idea that the Church has resisted all forms of progress is a hoax and terrible lie. I do understand your point, however, regarding knowledge within Christianity and have yet to find a sufficient answer even for myself. |
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Post by tits on Jan 22, 2007 9:53:50 GMT -8
The problem you describe is ancient. The Talmud and Levitical law speaks specifically to the issues you describe as current.
I believe the problem is that God created us a "free-will moral agents" "sexual beings' made a "little lower than the angels". This is social psychologist dream doctorate study. Namely, the conflict not between those of faith and those without, for everyone has a faith in something. No, it is the struggle within those of us of faith with the concept of obedience to God and Christ while maintaining our free-will sexual desires and quest for knowledge. This is what makes our understanding of the Grace of God so beautiful: For all have sinned and none are worthy of eternal life.
To people like James, young and full of new knowledge and old observations, we people of faith are hypocrites. That hypocrisy is worthy of rejection.
To these people, especially those raised here in the Christian west, Christianity is the problem. They do not see that it is the conflict within human nature that is the problem. People such as Cadet do not have the experience with other religions to see and perceive the same conflict. For example, the growing debate in the Muslim world is the use of violence. Whereas the majority of Muslims reject, Shia's reliance on the debatable "Sixth Tenent of Islam" the "Jihad", many find it difficult to challenge a faith that would permit what Christ described as the greater love: "Greater love is this, that a man law down his life for another." Christ goes on to praise that individual who would lay down his life for a stranger. To the Muslim, this same love is found in the Qur'an. The challenge then becomes a hypocrisy to the outsider. It is much like watching the debate between the Protestant such as myself and the devote Catholic such as "cat".
Faith and morality are two sides of the same coin for those of us with faith, to others they are totally separate. My favorite quote comes from an existentialist, Jiddu Krisnamurti: It is no measure of health to be adjusted to a profoundly sick society. To those who believe that man is good by nature, I challenge with the creation of the Hitler Juden. The late Coren Ten Boom (a Belgium Lutheran who was sent to Ravensbruck after a Jewish family was discovered living in a hole in their family room, Coren lost her sister, brother, and father in the death cames) wrote: "We could not believe that the German people would do such a thing. They were the smartest and most educated people in all of Europe." Yet within half a generation, a generation was being raised who thought that extermination of some people was justifiable. If the Nazi and Soviet societies could define normal health society as one that permitted genocide, then morality is not what people like James believe.
Without God we have no morality, we have chaos. Society has prove that again and again. James did not Rome have their faith in their gods? Did not they crumble into social chaos and destruction when they lost their faith?
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Post by FightingFalcon on Jan 22, 2007 12:13:42 GMT -8
Although the actions of so-called Christians is definitely a reason why I dislike that religion, it isn't the main reason.
I'm not simply picking on Christianity - I have focused on it because all of the posters here are Christian. In reality, Christianity is the "least awful" of all religions. Islam uses force to promote its ideas while the religions of the Orient are completely taken over by mysticism and the rejection of knowledge.
And THAT is why I hate religion - because it teaches that you are worthless unless you live for others. That the greatest sacrifice is giving up your life for others. That the successful businessman who employs thousands will rot in Hell while the worthless beggar will go to Heaven. That the man who struggles all of his life for productive achievement is worthless while the person who sacrifices himself for others has the greatest love. How can you possibly equate love to strangers whom you never meet? Anyone who does that has a warped and twisted view of love, IMHO. Why use the same word that you use to describe your relationship with your wife/husband, etc. to some random person living miles away?
The quest for knowledge and prosperity is useless if you do not accept the most important tenant of my belief system - that no one has the right to initiate the use of force. That all money is to be acquired without using force, fraud or coercion. That man is to live with Honor, Justice, Dignity, etc. That goods and services are to be exchanged in a free society without government intervention or the threat of violence looming overhead.
Rome is one of the worst examples of my philosophy. Just because I reject God, do not lump me with all Atheists. How would you like if I put you with all Theists, including Muslims, Buddhists, etc.?
The Romans frequently used force and fraud to achieve their aims. They would sign a peace treaty one day just to rip it up the next day. They used slaves, force deportation, etc. They were extremely dishonest and would sell anyone out to achieve their aims. They were the pinnacle of a THEIST society - that all individual goals should be enslaved to the good of the State. Just as religion preaches that individual pleasures should be enslaved to the glory of God. The liberals that you hate preach the same message that you do. You simply have a different deity. Yours is known by the name God, Allah, Buddha, etc. Theirs is known by the name of "the common good" or "all mankind" or "Society" etc.
I have my own morality - it is not yours. I do not want any part of yours.
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Post by tits on Jan 22, 2007 12:38:34 GMT -8
Self? it will fail. Humanism? then you are supporting the wrong party. The concept that the use of force is wrong, then reject your commission. The military is built upon the threat of punishment. Get a low eval and bam! Have a troop fail and its your fault and bam. I have seen great and powerful men fail because personnel under their command make wrong, foolish, or faulty decisions. I have seen others crash and burn when their physical concept of faith is lost. Like I often told our sons: "Life ain't fair and the world don't care." A good friend would confront his conflicts and achievements with the comment: "no one will care in a hundred years".
Money? If your belief system is that of Donald Trump, then good luck. It takes a cold heart to destroy people and not feel the loss.
Even old veterans who took lives in battle still feel the loss. Some of my patients are having to work through this conflict 65 years after the act. I destroyed a little white Peugeot that was attempting to crash through my gate. I seldom allow myself to recall those three teens that were hoping to destroy some American aircraft once they got onto the base.
James, you will have a "come-to-Jesus" moment. We all do, it will be a moment when everything you have, believe in, and hope for is stripped away. You will feel so totally alone that no words can describe it. My occurred in a hospital room after a major surgery. For many of my patients it does not come until just prior to the end. For others it occurs with something as simple as the birth of their first child. For others, it occurs when their spouse leaves taking everything they had worked for. For some without a faith, the bottle and drugs offer comfort.
Speak of open hypocrisy; you don't believe in force and have accepted a commission in the Air National Guard? I challenge your faith and your belief system. But I support your right to make it work. Good luck. You are a very intelligent and strong willed young man. You will go far and you will suffer great loss. Please do not alienate your friends and family in the journey. Without a faith in a deity, they are the only foundation we have left.
You are a good man. Congrats on graduating from such a fine university with such a good g.p.a.. I never achieved such high standards until graduate school.
A curmudgeon!
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Post by FightingFalcon on Jan 22, 2007 17:07:51 GMT -8
It's in the unconquerable human spirit and the will of man. It's represented by the man who landed on the moon, the man who explored previously uncharted parts of the world, the man who rejected religious slavery and dared to think that the Sun was the center of the universe, the man who invented the airplane, the man who built railroads across America, the man who mortgages everything he owns just to start his own business, etc. That is my faith and it can never be defeated.
No offense Tittus but that's the worst philosophy ever. That is the mantra of Statism. Nothing matters so why even try, right? Let's just get drunk and forget about all of our troubles.
Like I said before - money should only be acquired without the use of force or fraud and in a free society. The purpose isn't to destroy people but rather to make money for your selfish gain and not to help anyone else.
That's it, isn't it? People seem to "find God" when they are extremely poor or about to die. You don't see too many (if any) young, rich, hard-working Christians, do you? It's because they have no need for God. How many people find God once all material possessions are stripped away? Or when they face personal danger? Or when they're about to die?
It's because their scared and they need something to ease their mind. They need something to comfort them and let them know that they aren't alone. Being poor is hard enough but being poor and alone is too scary for most people to contemplate. So they turn to God. And if their fortunes turn around - a miracle!
It's the USAF, not the ANG. And I said I rejected the initiation of physical force. If I rejected all force, there's no way I would join the AF. Of course I believe in the right of self-defense. But every single war in the history of mankind (every single one!) has been the result of the fact that one country thought it had the right to initiate the use of force against another - or against its own citizens. When this right is accepted, all others disappear. Property rights, free speech, etc. do not matter in a society where force is the ultimate arbiter. Where any dispute can be solved by the gun. Any seemingly free society is simply existing on borrowed time if it worships force in such a way. The reason why Capitalism has brought relative peace to Europe and America is the fact that Capitalism rejects the initiation of the use of force. As Europe begins to slide back into Statism, I see conflict becoming increasingly inevitable. So long as mankind continues to believe that anyone can initiate the use of force, we will always have war.
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Post by tits on Jan 22, 2007 19:42:04 GMT -8
that you may wish to use should you ever want to arouse the ire of some of us "Faithful".
"Do I look like someone who cares what God thinks?" - Pinhead, Hellraiser: Bloodline (1996)
You misunderstood my intent with military and force. The structure of the officer corps is one of politics and force. Not physical but the more lethal and harming, emotional. As long as your ship sails straight and the crew are with you all is well. But I have seen too many good officers, young and old alike get their legs chopped out from under them because someone in their command rocked the boat. While I don't really know the USAF, I did serve in the Marines, 12 years in the USNR, and 11 years in the USA as a civilian in the medical corps. My father and an uncle were airmen. Uncle retired a "bird" at the academy and still lives in the area.
Good luck, are you hoping to earn some wings? How soon after graduation do you leave for OCS?
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Post by FightingFalcon on Jan 22, 2007 21:11:52 GMT -8
Trust me - I have no problem disciplining my people lol. I'm kinda known for that at my Detachment...
But only because I have no patience for lazy people or people who have no respect for the AF. You should see the way that some people show up to training. Uniforms a mess, haven't shaved, hair outta regs, etc. I just wanna bash their face in but I can't cause the AF doesn't let us do that.
I got my classification and base assignments already - I'll probably stick with my current classification (Logistics). Check the C and C board...I posted about where I'm going this summer.
I don't have to go to OCS because I'm doing ROTC now. Already went to boot camp and all that good stuff so as soon as I get my diploma I'm a 2nd Lt.
edit: Yes, I do like that quote lol
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Post by cataracts on Jan 24, 2007 23:52:31 GMT -8
It's in the unconquerable human spirit and the will of man. It's represented by the man who landed on the moon, the man who explored previously uncharted parts of the world, the man who rejected religious slavery and dared to think that the Sun was the center of the universe, the man who invented the airplane, the man who built railroads across America, the man who mortgages everything he owns just to start his own business, etc. That is my faith and it can never be defeated. Hi FF, Yes, I see that you have completely immersed yourself into the Ayn Rand philosophy. She believed in the "superman" and, by the way, so did Nietzche. Please be careful with this Rand Superman stuff. It may go to your head. No offense Tittus but that's the worst philosophy ever. That is the mantra of Statism. Nothing matters so why even try, right? Let's just get drunk and forget about all of our troubles. Like I said before - money should only be acquired without the use of force or fraud and in a free society. The purpose isn't to destroy people but rather to make money for your selfish gain and not to help anyone else. Most people make their money this way. Who are you talking about? The Superman? That's it, isn't it? People seem to "find God" when they are extremely poor or about to die. You don't see too many (if any) young, rich, hard-working Christians, do you? It's because they have no need for God. How many people find God once all material possessions are stripped away? Or when they face personal danger? Or when they're about to die? There are people that wait until they die before they start doing some serious praying. I suppose it's better late than never. The word for people that have no fear of God is "foolish". It's because their scared and they need something to ease their mind. They need something to comfort them and let them know that they aren't alone. Being poor is hard enough but being poor and alone is too scary for most people to contemplate. So they turn to God. And if their fortunes turn around - a miracle! FF, once you are in your grave, it will be forever. It's all right to pray. It's all right to turn to God when you feel alone. God always has the last word, no matter what Ayn Rand says. It's the USAF, not the ANG. And I said I rejected the initiation of physical force. If I rejected all force, there's no way I would join the AF. Of course I believe in the right of self-defense. But every single war in the history of mankind (every single one!) has been the result of the fact that one country thought it had the right to initiate the use of force against another - or against its own citizens. When this right is accepted, all others disappear. Property rights, free speech, etc. do not matter in a society where force is the ultimate arbiter. Where any dispute can be solved by the gun. Any seemingly free society is simply existing on borrowed time if it worships force in such a way. The reason why Capitalism has brought relative peace to Europe and America is the fact that Capitalism rejects the initiation of the use of force. As Europe begins to slide back into Statism, I see conflict becoming increasingly inevitable. So long as mankind continues to believe that anyone can initiate the use of force, we will always have war. FF, If you really believed what you have just said, then you should open your arms to Christianity. It has the only answer to your last paragraph. Your ex Ayn Rand disciple, Cataracts |
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Post by cataracts on Jan 25, 2007 0:01:11 GMT -8
Funny - instead of refuting anything I say, you simply go to personal attacks. As for my History - I learned it at GWU, ranked #51 out of all colleges in the country. I'll be graduating with Honors and a 3.75 GPA in my History classes. I also have a concentration in Classical Humanities. The irony of a close-minded slave to religion calling ME gullible.....haha I love it. FF, Tittus really likes to brown nose it up, but I have a flash for you: That GPA doesn't mean a thing. Your ranking means even less. It may make you feel better, however no one gives a hoot about those things. You are going into the working world. Whether it's a branch of the service or somewhere in the public domain. Be prepared to take a lot of abuse. And while you are struggling keep in mind those Christian values that you deem so lightly. Cataracts |
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Post by FightingFalcon on Jan 25, 2007 2:45:46 GMT -8
I have no patience for Nietzche or any philosopher who thinks that its impossible to have rational knowledge about the workings of the universe.
Ayn Rand's critics called this love of the human spirit "hero worship" but both her and I object to that term. I don't like the term worship because of the connotations that it brings up. There is nothing super-human about the men whom I admire and respect. Although certain men accomplish things that others could never hope to (e.g. I am not advanced in the field of science at all and could never hope to rival Einstein) that doesn't mean that they have "unnatural" abilities of any kind. They were men like you and me.
Which way? Through fraud? Or for their own selfish aims?
That's one thing I never understood about Christianity - that fear of God thing. Probably because it was meant to keep believers in line and I wanted no part of it.
Arguing about the afterlife is pointless. I still maintain that when you die - that's it. I live for life in this world and not the next.
Christianity? Your religion had its chance. Christianity brought war, destruction, statism, ignorance, poverty, slavery, etc to Europe for millenia. In its short history, Capitalism has brought more peace and prosperity to Europe than Christianity could ever hope to. Do you honestly think that political and economic development are unrelated? That there is no connection to the belief in property rights and democracy? That Adam Smith and John Locke wrote during the same time period by chance? I don't see any coincidence - political freedoms inevitably follows from economic freedom. One is not possible without the other.
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Post by cataracts on Jan 26, 2007 2:03:25 GMT -8
FF,
Good grief! I think capitalism is fine as far as it goes. Sometimes it goes too far.
So the grave will be the end of you? If that's the case, why all the passion? You won't be around much longer. Maybe 50 or 60 years. So much to do in so little time!! You realize, of course, that after you're dead no one will ever think about you again. You will be forgotten. No one cares for dead guys. They arn't going to waste their time. They are to busy becoming "supermen".
By the way I equated Ayn Rand with Nietzche because they both believed in "the superman."
Fear of God!! Yes I fear God. Only a fool doesn't. You will be here only a few short years and then you die. Your soul will be in the hands of that Entity that will determine where you will be for eternity.
So Christianity has had it's chance! That's funny. Christianity will be around for a long time. Long after you are dead. Me too.
Also, you don't like to use that word "superman". But that is exactly what Ayn Rand was talking about. The superman!!!!! Ayn Rand, Nietzche, and you are making the same mistake. You can't do anything without God. He's given you everything that you have. He's even given you the ability to breathe air. Breathe, one breath is all that there is between you and death. God gave it to you and He'll take it away. Then where will you be? Your body will be in the grave, but your soul will be in the hands of God.
I realize there is nothing I can say to change your mind. I know that I cannot. I trust that God will bring you around sometime.
Cataracts
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Post by FightingFalcon on Jan 26, 2007 5:32:36 GMT -8
I wouldn't know because I've never seen true Capitalism. America has gotten close but now we are so far from Capitalism that its reaching Socialism.
First of all that's a ridiculous statement. My greatest hero died 2000 years ago - no, it's not the guy that you're thinking of. Second of all, I really don't care. Like I said before, I live for myself. I don't care what future generations think.
I just don't see the point in being afraid of your "father" and "creator". My father is my idol and I love him. I would never, ever be afraid of him.
It's only a matter of time before religion disappears. For millenia, religion has been used to explain phenomenon that humans can't explain. People felt safe knowing that lightning came from Zeus, storms from Neptune, famine from, well, Famine, etc. Now that we know where these things come from, we don't need religion anymore. As more people realize that divine intervention does not exist and that they have accomplished great things on their own, they won't need God anymore.
The mantra of the lazy and the weak.
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-- has been a principal actor in the development of our understanding of morality, of philosophy and government, technology, and humanities. The Church remains the single largest humanitarian organization in the world. The idea that the Church has resisted all forms of progress is a hoax and terrible lie.