Hey Cat

[tits]

I am searching for a good Catholic study bible. Yes, I use the Protestant and have found that the NIV Study Bible suits me best. However, I must admit that I would like a thin-line/giant print version of The Message to use with my geriatric patients.

I have read a great deal since we began our discussions on the Canon of the accepted OT/NT (Councils of Jamnia (90a.d.) and Synod of Hippo Regius (397 a.d.)) and the Council of Rome (1547) (where they discussed Luther's and the Church of England's reliance on the Septuagint as the most reliable version of the OT).

From my readings, there are some minor differences in a few OT books and the exclusion of the Apocrypha between the current Catholic and the Protestant bible. Those differences do not speak of Christ except as a promised savior, but do enhance the story of God's greatness especially to the faithful Jew. My personal study wants to verify this observation and I would greatly appreciate your guidance to a quality Catholic study bible.

Also, someday, I would like to compare the Luther's Small Catechism with the Catholic Catechism.

One of the nagging questions in the pit of my stomach is why the schism between the five major segments of Christianity: Catholicism, traditional Protestantism (Lutheranism, Baptist, Church of England, Episcopalian, etc.), modern Evangelical (of which the Church of Christ (my current understanding) is a foundation), the liberal Unitarian (God loves everyone and if you are good he will ignore your life of sin (homosexuality and feminism), and collectivist (all religions have truth).

As I have posted several times in various ways, I cannot understand how someone could read the NT and OT and then claim that God did not mean that sin was punishable by death. Our society has embraced Pilate's words as truth, heck a previous President almost quoted it and was found not guilty because of it: "What is truth?" The sad thing is that this philosophy has become the mantra of our young, look at those discussions with Fighting Falcon (Cadet). I have had the same discussion with our youngest son and many of his friends. That is why I did not pursue that discussion.

Anyway, thanks for your guidance.

[jfree]

The Church of Christ is not evangelical, none that I have seen are, at least not in the tv evangelist give me all your money style though they do believe as all christians that we are to spread the word of God. What church was it that Baker was preacher for?

Churches of Christ are non-denominational and do not subscribe to having any form of heirarchy that runs all churches the same, they let each church decide for themselves, there is no excommunication, but they do believe in preaching the bible word for word so wouldn't condone the act homosexuality, and believing in erring on the side of caustion, ie., if there is question, if in doubt, do not do it cause it may be a sin. I don't know if that helps you in placing them in one of these five categories.

Of course there is another Church of Christ sect that is controversial, it always puts the cities name before Church of Christ and is I believe run by one man out of Boston who got into some sort of embezzling scandal, he may fit the evangalist mold like old Jimmie Baker.

The schism between churches comes when we place judgement upon eachother as individuals, calling names like protty, papist, etc. I know I have when someone continually attacks me, get tired and call them fascists for not allowing others to have differing opinions. What we all need do, thou very unlikely, is just work together as Christians, and stop counting our differences or using them to beat eachother up w/, and at the same time we do need to make sure and distance Christianity from those who do it ill, those who molest, those who embezzle, those who run cults instead of Christian Churches. See we will never agree on meaning of scripture or inclusion of Apocrypha, I know I never will, I have read Josephus, the Glossa Ordinaria, Gregory the Great, Jerome, and quite a few others, to me it is clear the Apocrypha are substandard and uninspired, good for historical reference but nothing else, no tradition or spiritual value for me, but others will always disagree, what really sealed it was the language, it was written in Greek not Hebrew, the Jews were the keepers and the writters, they would have kept and written it in Hebrew. But hey, that's just me.

[tits]

Yes, you are correct about our organization. I have been very involved with several of the founding members of the Boston Movement. Those people were innocent and faithful before they left for Boston, but.....

One lost his marriage when the leadership up there told his wife that he was not saved. The man had been our worship leader at Garnett CoC in Tulsa before they became involved with that "sect".

Question: Have you found that our myopia with church purity and not pursuing Pure Religion upsetting? I can't put my finger on it, but in the 31 years that we have been members of the CoC I have found that every church that I have been a member of failing to achieve what we state we believe. We invent meaning of scriptures to support our beliefs (necessary inference) and then disfellowship those that don't obey them.

Coming into the Church from a mixed youth, I was raised in a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church that did not give up the German until 1968. Heck, my Dad recently told me that my great-grandfather had something to do with the formation of the Missouri Synod way back when. My mother's family are devote Roman Catholic, I was raised worshiping with cousins, one almost became a Franciscan Priest but met a beautiful woman and gave up his vow to marry.

[jfree]

I don't think pursuing "Pure Religion" is what being Christian is about, it is just about worshiping God, so to seek out religion is unimportant and secondary to seeking out the truth of the scriptures and worship of course comes first. Of course I grew up in a CoC, so perhaps because I never experienced the full thrust of a traditional ceremonial religion I do not miss it? Psychologically it is a very different experience to see the ceremony like in the RCC, and chanting (repeated prayer, like hail mary's etc) can enduce a euphoric trance like state, so would definately be missed.

I have never witnessed disfellopshipping of anyone in any CoC I have attended, and there have been strong disagreements over a temporary preacher we have, he tends to lean to the Baptist side, and when he starts in, we tend to let him go on and then discuss his statements and what is wrong w/them, he has been so negative many have left because they don't like him or his opinions, but no one was disfellowshipped, and now that he is leaving, those that left are returning. Maybe because our church is so small, we get along just fine and let others exentricities just pass by w/out turning it into a federal case. But as far as excommunicating others for their beliefs or disobeying of the scriptures? No I have never witnessed this in my life.

How would they know? See that is the kind of thing Christians should never do, stand in judgement of others, saying this person is not saved. Sorry for the man, but if his wife gave up that easily I can't imagine she really loved him. My father is agnostic but my mother would never leave him, my husband is agnostic as well, I don't care, I love him, so wouldn't leave him for it. Making those kind of judgements and abandoning family who don't believe accomplishes nothing, I raise my children as Christian, but if they leave the church I will not abandon them, people who do that give Christianity a bad name and make us all look petty, judgemental, predjudice, intollerant and like a bunch of jerks. Jesus didn't stand in judgement of Mary Magdeline, why then do people think they can stand in judgement of other people? I just don't get that.

[tits]

I have either participated in or witnessed 13 disfellowships.

They are not pretty. Depending on where you raised, here in the "heartland", the CoC is composed of either the extremely fundamentalist or those that permit clapping during worship. We moved to this burb of Kansas City 19 years ago from Tulsa, where we had been active members of the Garnett CoC. Marvin Phillips was the pulpit preacher and we averaged a little over 1500 on any given Sunday. I was the 3 & 4 year old bible hour teacher (when in town) and averaged 56 of those hyperactive little bundles. (My job required frequent and often extended travel in those days)

In 1987 we hosted a conference of CoC and Christian Church preachers with 190(+) in attendance to discuss those items of unity. The word got out that we had a Sunday worship where one of the Christian Church preachers led communion. The storm that erupted from the more conservative brothers in neighboring churches and in the "brotherhood papers" nearly killed Marvin.

We moved to the Kansas City area in 1988 and placed membership with our local church, an extremely conservative group. Yet in our suburban town of 38,000 we had three CoC's: ours with around 130 on a Sunday, a "one cup" group of nearly 25, and an ultra conservative group that has not changed in 18 years (45 people). I was MC for a youth rally one year and introduced some Acapella style harmonizing. The eldership stopped me, pulled me aside, and told me that we not even introduce anything that resembles instrumental music. We are now members a great church family in Independence.

I have come to realize that most Americans and CoC members included mistake Churchism and religiosity with being faithful Christians. However, the words of Jesus concerning children, orphans, and widows combined with the instruction of James 1:20 and repeated condemnation of Israel by the prophets in the OT has caused me to see that "pure religion and undefiled is to visit the fatherless and widows in their distress and..." It is not in church attendence or Bott Radio, but in our very being.

J you are correct we were made and given the free will to worship and praise God. Yet, we have confused Paul's instruction to be instant in season and out with memorizing scriptures. There are few who can hold a candle to a CoC member in scripture memorization; but memorization does not feed the poor, clothe the orphan, or care for the widow.

I shall add your mother and her steadfast love to my list of special people. It is not easy to maintain faith in a home where it is not appreciated.

Thank you for sharing.

[jfree]

Wow, Tittus, sounds like a totally different Church than the ones I experienced. I have never heard of anyone objecting to harmonizing because they think it sounds instrumental, how silly that seems.

I agree we need to take care of orphans, widows and all in dire straights, we do do charity work, do those churches not? I think it is incumbent on all Christians to do charity work, as we are suppose to be setting good examples, how can we not?

My mom for sure could quote you nearly the whole bible, I always felt sorry for the JW's that strayed on to her front porch, she would invite them in and let them have it verse for verse, as a result no evangelist dares knock on her door and this is a small town, lol. I think it is important to know the word of God in order to be a good Christian, but I also think you need to lead a good example and do good works.

I have been to a Russian Orthodox church, it was the most painful experience, I didn't know you couldn't sit and had worn high-heels, ouch, and I am allergic to incense, I nearly passed out.

[cataracts]

tits said:

I am searching for a good Catholic study bible. Yes, I use the Protestant and have found that the NIV Study Bible suits me best. However, I must admit that I would like a thin-line/giant print version of The Message to use with my geriatric patients.

I have read a great deal since we began our discussions on the Canon of the accepted OT/NT (Councils of Jamnia (90a.d.) and Synod of Hippo Regius (397 a.d.)) and the Council of Rome (1547) (where they discussed Luther's and the Church of England's reliance on the Septuagint as the most reliable version of the OT).

From my readings, there are some minor differences in a few OT books and the exclusion of the Apocrypha between the current Catholic and the Protestant bible. Those differences do not speak of Christ except as a promised savior, but do enhance the story of God's greatness especially to the faithful Jew. My personal study wants to verify this observation and I would greatly appreciate your guidance to a quality Catholic study bible.

Also, someday, I would like to compare the Luther's Small Catechism with the Catholic Catechism.

One of the nagging questions in the pit of my stomach is why the schism between the five major segments of Christianity: Catholicism, traditional Protestantism (Lutheranism, Baptist, Church of England, Episcopalian, etc.), modern Evangelical (of which the Church of Christ (my current understanding) is a foundation), the liberal Unitarian (God loves everyone and if you are good he will ignore your life of sin (homosexuality and feminism), and collectivist (all religions have truth).

As I have posted several times in various ways, I cannot understand how someone could read the NT and OT and then claim that God did not mean that sin was punishable by death. Our society has embraced Pilate's words as truth, heck a previous President almost quoted it and was found not guilty because of it: "What is truth?" The sad thing is that this philosophy has become the mantra of our young, look at those discussions with Fighting Falcon (Cadet). I have had the same discussion with our youngest son and many of his friends. That is why I did not pursue that discussion.

Anyway, thanks for your guidance.

Tittus,
You might try looking on the website ewtn.com to find a good Catholic study Bible.
The council of Jamnia has many problems with appropriate credentials when it comes to the Roman Catholic Church.

1)`The first problem that comes to mind is that the Council of Jamnia was made up totally of Rabbinic Jews. Roman Catholics would heed a council of Roman Catholics, but Jewish councils would be completely ignored.

2) The Catholic's Canon of the Bible wasn't completed until approximately 400 AD. The Council of Jamnia took place around AD 90. This was about 10 years before John even wrote his Gospel.

3) Why doesn't the Church OK Jewish councils. Because we are independant of the Jewish religion. We don't have to pay any attention to them. To say that the Old Testament was written by Jews is correct. However, the Jews don't have the correct understanding of their Books. If they did they would come to the realiziation that Jesus is the fullfillment of the Old Testament and is in fact the Messiah. God, Second Person of the Trinity. However, they don't understand this, therefore they don't understand their own writings.

Any questions?
Cataracts

[cataracts]

tits said:

Yes, you are correct about our organization. I have been very involved with several of the founding members of the Boston Movement. Those people were innocent and faithful before they left for Boston, but.....

One lost his marriage when the leadership up there told his wife that he was not saved. The man had been our worship leader at Garnett CoC in Tulsa before they became involved with that "sect".

Question: Have you found that our myopia with church purity and not pursuing Pure Religion upsetting? I can't put my finger on it, but in the 31 years that we have been members of the CoC I have found that every church that I have been a member of failing to achieve what we state we believe. We invent meaning of scriptures to support our beliefs (necessary inference) and then disfellowship those that don't obey them.

Coming into the Church from a mixed youth, I was raised in a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church that did not give up the German until 1968. Heck, my Dad recently told me that my great-grandfather had something to do with the formation of the Missouri Synod way back when. My mother's family are devote Roman Catholic, I was raised worshiping with cousins, one almost became a Franciscan Priest but met a beautiful woman and gave up his vow to marry.

Hi Tittus,
I am really amazed when I hear statements like "this man was not saved". This type of statement is totally alien to the Roman Catholic Church. No man can decide who is saved and who is not saved. We have a teaching that there are 7 steps to Hell. The last step is final damnation. In all the steps "going down" only the last is permanent. In any of the other six steps, the person can be forgiven and eventually go to Heaven. In this last step, the person is about to die and, even on his deathbed, refuses to ask for forgiveness. This is what we call "The sin against the Holy Spirit". Basically it amounts to "where there is life there is hope".

Of course the Seven Steps are not the only way a man can go to hell. He could have "mortal sin" on his soul and then die an unexpeced death. This man will go to hell.

Any questions?
Cataracts

[tits]

cataracts said:

tits said:

Hi Tittus,
I am really amazed when I hear statements like "this man was not saved". This type of statement is totally alien to the Roman Catholic Church. No man can decide who is saved and who is not saved. We have a teaching that there are 7 steps to Hell. The last step is final damnation. In all the steps "going down" only the last is permanent. In any of the other six steps, the person can be forgiven and eventually go to Heaven. In this last step, the person is about to die and, even on his deathbed, refuses to ask for forgiveness. This is what we call "The sin against the Holy Spirit". Basically it amounts to "where there is life there is hope".

Of course the Seven Steps are not the only way a man can go to hell. He could have "mortal sin" on his soul and then die an unexpected death. This man will go to hell.

Any questions?
Cataracts

Thanks, I have investigated these gatherings and their "Cannons". I find them very intriguing.

Several months back, I came across a Jewish source that described the efforts of Nehemiah and Ezra in the fifth century to reconstruct the Torah and Talmud. To my disappointment, I have since lost the link.

According to that source, 70 "elders" were sent to far lands to gather all of the lost writings. After nearly 2½ years, 40 of them gathered together to inspect the writings for accuracy measured against memorized scriptures. Apparently the Priests during the Exile used oral memorization to past on the books.

Then, after much prayer, Ezra fell into a trance and did nothing but write for 40 days and 40 nights. During this period he neither ate nor sleep. "He was guided by the Spirit". During this time he rewrote the Pentateuch, Samuel, Kings, Chronicles, and about dozen of the Psalms. The books of Jeremiah and Isaiah were found and all of these works were copied and sent to all the "regions" of the land.

YES, you are correct, the statements made my many of the our spiritual leaders throughout time have been insulting personal opinions. Unfortunately, no denomination has a history free of such nonsense.

Cat, I must admit that I have come to desire to study more with you. Not to challenge each other's faith, but that you and your faith are refreshing. I have found that the vast majority of "Christians" world wide, in fact, all faithful of all religions confirm Mark Twain's observation: "In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing"

I have come to view Paul's admonition to Timothy as an instruction to each of us to avoid what Mark Twain spoke so clearly about the world's opinion of our hypocritical faith. "2 Tim 2:15Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth. " That study is much deeper than just quoting bok-chapter-and verser, but really applies to how those scriprutes and our faith lives through us.

But to bring this discussion back to the original question, here is an example of the above in the Message version: "2 Tim 2:14-18 Repeat these basic essentials over and over to God's people. Warn them before God against pious nitpicking, which chips away at the faith. It just wears everyone out. Concentrate on doing your best for God, work you won't be ashamed of, laying out the truth plain and simple. Stay clear of pious talk that is only talk. Words are not mere words, you know. If they're not backed by a godly life, they accumulate as poison in the soul. Hymenaeus and Philetus are examples, throwing believers off stride and missing the truth by a mile by saying the resurrection is over and done with.

The Message is not a translation but rather a contemporary rendition of the Greek into modern socio-psychological context: "primary goal was to capture the tone of the text and the original conversational feel of the Greek, in contemporary English"

[cataracts]

Tittus,
Interesting comments.
I must say that I relish the opposition of a debate. When I'm trying to prove myself correct and my opponent incorrect I work a lot harder.
Cat(aracts)

[tits]

Some time back I had a surprising chuckle at a recognition of your title.

"Cataracts" are clouding of the lens portion of the eye. The result is much like smearing grease over the lens of a camera and impairs normal vision.



But the humor was in the realization that myopia is often a symptom of consequence of cataracts. Though the blurring of the vision is not corrected by holding things closer to the eye, the symptoms mimic near-sightedness. However, myopia is also a term applied to a person who is narrow minded and fixated on their perspectives.

Ergo: I thought of our debates and the dept of your faith and I found your moniker very accurate.

My moniker!

Titus Moody was a character from the old Fred Allen Linux radio hour. He was designed to appeal to Allen’s rural listeners. Moody’s comments were full of references to farm life, and his jokes were laced with "Bunyanesque exaggerations", based upon his farm life. For instance, Titus once responded that the land was so poor that grasshoppers wouldn’t stop there. Mr. Moody was known for being long winded with a short punch line. My favorite exchange occured following the questions: "Were you a childhood prodigy?". The response was: "My boy, I was sub-normal and proud of it!"

www.sperdvac.org/allen_alley.htm

Tittus!

[cataracts]

Tittus,
Funny Tittus.
I was both nearsighted and had a severe case of cataracts.
I had the cataracts operated on with new lenses put in. Now I can see clearly and far away, but I can't see close.
Of course this indicates that I am now a far-seeing, fabulously intelligent, grasshopper.

I never listened to Fred Allen. I was more of the "Hop-a-long Cassidy type listener.
Wallace Barry was one of my childhood favorites. Tough and ugly!.

Cataracts