|
|
Post by cataracts on May 24, 2007 1:51:17 GMT -8
Atheism is never the conclusion of any theory, philosophical or scientific. It is a decision, a free act of choice that comes before all theories.
--------------------------------------John Courtney Murray
Why is there anything.....anything at all?
Why am I?
Why am I inclined to do evil only to feel guilty about it?
Ought I to despair?
How do I prepare for death?
What can make sense out of this life?
These are questions not only for the dying but for the living. They are not only for weaklings and uninformed people but precisely for the informed. They are not excuses for avoiding action but incentives to action. They are questions that atheism, in the last resort, leaves unanswered.
Now FF, it is said that no proof of God's existence has commanded universal acceptance. Of course!!!! The mere existence of one atheist makes that clear. But this fact proves nothing against the proofs themselves. The root of error lies in the will, that evidence for a proposition can be valid and yet be rejected by one who doesn't like it.
All atheists are in error. Why? Because they sin. Sin is the root cause of error. Is it true that atheism is an intellectual conclusion reached by argument or a freely chosen stance taken toward reality? The Bible has a clear answer for this question. The ultimate root of atheism is not erronious judgement of the mind but an act of 'choice'.
Jean Paul Sartre considered that atheism is a radical decision that one makes. He did not even try to construct a rational justification for this decision. Atheism is never the conclusion of any theory, philosophical or scientific. It is a decision, a free act of choice that comes before any theory. It rests on premises that can never be proved. These premises are merely asserted.
Ludwig Feuerbach has been labelled the high priest of atheism. It is from him that all atheists get their main arguments.
Feuerbach has asserted that God originates in human consciousness and desires. Man seeks immortality, happiness, truth and security, and he supposes that there must be a real object to correspond to these aspirations. God becomes for Feuerbach the answer to human needs.
FF, can you spot the enormous fallacy with Feuerbach. Of course we experience a yearning for immortality and truth and love and security, but the yearning in no wise disproves the existence of the things sought. We long to see the beauty of colors and light, but that does not prove there is no such thing as visible objects. We hunger and thirst for food and drink, but that is no evidence that bread and fruit and water have only an illusory existence. On the contrary, if we suppose that reality makes sense, it does follow that if humans need food and drink, there must be realities that may so serve as nourishment. If we have eyes, there should be light and color.
The atheist must face the likelihood that his own position is itself a projection of his desire to have no God, to have no one to whom he is responsible, according to whose will he must pattern his life.
Many of the typical objections to God's existence are scarcely more than mental constructs with no validity in the real world. They are much like the objections one could raise against so obvious a truth as the existence of Paris. No matter what evidences are brought forward to prove that there is such a city in a country called France an objector can always find fault.
One can always say that logically it could be otherwise. To which the answer is 'yes', it could, but that has nothing to do with the concrete reality of the matter.
Look Fighting Falcon, I truly doubt that I can convince you that atheism is a 100% loser, however, it can't harm anything to try.
More Later!
Cataracts
|
|
|
|
Post by AmericanPride on May 24, 2007 4:51:50 GMT -8
You say that "all atheists are in error" because "they sin", and that "sin is the root cause of error".
This is where your argument fails. Would you like me to explain why?
|
|
|
|
Post by FightingFalcon on May 24, 2007 16:51:31 GMT -8
Shall I take your questions one by one, then?
Because the process of evolution led to the creation of the universe and the existence of life on this planet - along with, most likely, many other planets.
Because you are.
You feel "guilty" about doing "evil" becaue religion makes you feel that way. I myself do no harm to others, do not lie, cheat or steal and try to be open and honest in all my dealings. I don't need religion to keep me in line.
About what?
The same way that you prepare for taxes, I suppose.
I'm pretty content with the answers I've found.
Atheism is the inevitable and logical result after doing enough studying about history, theology, the universe, biology, etc. There is a reason why people with higher levels of education are also less religious. Atheism isn't a "choice" per se - its the simple recognition of the fact that the evidence points toward the non-existence of god.
See, the nice thing about Atheism is that we don't need philosophers to fall all over themselves in an attempt to defend their position. You don't have people like Aquinas, Augustine, etc. trying to make sense out of nonsense. Atheism doesn't need philosophy - its simply the recognition of the truth.
I'm so sick and tired of this argument, I really am. Like I've said before - I don't need an imaginary being to "keep me in line". I'm pretty sure any responsible adult should be able to do that.
I'm not interested with what makes someone feel good, act righteously or think that they will be given eternal life. I am only interested with what exists.
|
|
|
|
Post by cataracts on May 24, 2007 21:07:50 GMT -8
You say that "all atheists are in error" because "they sin", and that "sin is the root cause of error". This is where your argument fails. Would you like me to explain why? Please do!!! |
|
|
|
Post by cataracts on May 24, 2007 21:41:11 GMT -8
Hi FF,
I really got a kick out of your answers. You realize that you defended yourself with absolutely no facts or anything intelligible.
Basically you have just said "atheism exists because I want it too".
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because the process of evolution led to the creation of the universe and the existence of life on this planet - along with, most likely, many other planets.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Evolution is still a theory, and not a very good one. However, this is the first time I ever heard that evolution led to the creation of the universe. Some college professors should stop smoking that weed.
Quote:Why am I?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because you are.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's the same as answering a childs question with the answer "because".
You are here because God created you. We are both here because God created us. Our parents are responsible for the body and God is responsible for the soul. We could take this back to Adam and Eve if you want to. There had to be a first man for us to be here. That first man was created by God.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You feel "guilty" about doing "evil" becaue religion makes you feel that way. I myself do no harm to others, do not lie, cheat or steal and try to be open and honest in all my dealings. I don't need religion to keep me in line.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Catholic Church is my teacher. It teaches me about God's revelation to man. The Church doesn't make me feel anything. God did give me a conscience. If I go against that conscience, I will feel guilty, but only for awhile. If I go against my conscience often enough, I won't feel anything. A dead conscience is a very dangerous thing to have. You will be judged on your conscience.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:How do I prepare for death?
The same way that you prepare for taxes, I suppose.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Catholic religion has taught me that the teachings of God are very reasonable, sensible, and good for me. They are not made up of superstition, fantasy, and foolishness. We, and everyone else that is alive now will die. What we call death is for eternity. Think about it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:What can make sense out of this life?
I'm pretty content with the answers I've found.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you're so content then why are you so unhappy? Have you ever seen a joyful atheist? I haven't. It's only by faith in God that a man can feel true joy.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
The ultimate root of atheism is not erronious judgement of the mind but an act of 'choice'.
Atheism is the inevitable and logical result after doing enough studying about history, theology, the universe, biology, etc. There is a reason why people with higher levels of education are also less religious. Atheism isn't a "choice" per se - its the simple recognition of the fact that the evidence points toward the non-existence of god.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is nothing inevitable or logical about atheism. You say that you have done a lot of studying on the matter?? I think you are lying. You haven't studied anything. You decided that you were going to be an atheist and no facts were going to get in your way. Your 'fact' that people with higher levels of education become atheist is pure bs. If anything my guess it's the reverse.. People that refuse to reason become atheist.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Ludwig Feuerbach has been labelled the high priest of atheism. It is from him that all atheists get their main arguments.
See, the nice thing about Atheism is that we don't need philosophers to fall all over themselves in an attempt to defend their position. You don't have people like Aquinas, Augustine, etc. trying to make sense out of nonsense. Atheism doesn't need philosophy - its simply the recognition of the truth
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your answer here is really very funny. You admit that no really intelligent, well educated people are needed to prove atheism. This proves my point that atheism is simply a choice, not a reality.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
The atheist must face the likelihood that his own position is itself a projection of his desire to have no God, to have no one to whom he is responsible, according to whose will he must pattern his life.
I'm so sick and tired of this argument, I really am. Like I've said before - I don't need an imaginary being to "keep me in line". I'm pretty sure any responsible adult should be able to do that.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FF, you misunderstood the quote. To put it more simply: atheism exists because the people who want it to exist get all the proof they need from their own imagination. Atheism is a construct of the atheists head.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Look Fighting Falcon, I truly doubt that I can convince you that atheism is a 100% loser, however, it can't harm anything to try.
I'm not interested with what makes someone feel good, act righteously or think that they will be given eternal life. I am only interested with what exists.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well FF, if you are only interested in what exists, then stop being an atheist. It is a figment of your imagination. It doesn't exist in reality.
Cataracts
|
|
|
|
Post by FightingFalcon on May 25, 2007 7:49:31 GMT -8
Atheism exists because I want it to? That's ironic coming from someone who believes in a being that has no proof for his existence. I could just as easily say to you that you believe in god only because you want to - which is very much the case. It's the case with all believers. God exists solely because you want and need him to. The thought of us being "alone" without some supernatural being watching over us makes you scared so you cling to the idea of your god who has a plan for every thing.
You know what else is a theory? Gravity. I love when people who are not educated about science try to use its own terms against it.
Or the same way that a Theist explains something in the universe. "Because God wills it so"
And you have proof of this, of course?
Please don't lecture me on the conscience of an Atheist when you yourself have never experienced it. You really have no idea what you're talking about.
If virgin births, giant floods, miracles and bringing people back from the dead isn't superstition, fantasy and foolishness, then I'm not sure what is.
LOL...my favorite argument. That Atheists are unhappy. It's funny because just last week was the happiest moment of my life, when my friends and I commissioned into the USAF. In a few months, I'm going to live with my best friend in Europe for a few years while serving in the AF. Yea...I'm unhappy.....what an awful life! lol
You're right - I haven't been studying the history of religion for 15 years.....
You're losing it Cataracts....people with faith have higher levels of eduction? Sorry, but not according to every single study ever done on the subject.
Atheism is the abandonment of reason? God, where the HELL are you getting your ideas from? Have you ever honestly met an Atheist in real life? Do you even understand your own religion? Believing in fairy tale myths is NOT an acceptance of reason!
Believing that there is a god is a choice because there is no evidence for his existence. Not believing in a god is a simple recognition of this FACT.
I honestly don't know why I'm continuing this conversation and I will probably stop after this post. You are so far gone and brain washed that it's actually sad.
|
|
|
|
Post by cataracts on May 26, 2007 20:35:07 GMT -8
FF,
Thomas Aquinas made five proofs for the existance of God without using religion or the Bible in any of them. Of course, any atheist worth his salt would call Thomas Aquinas a total whackout. This is OK for the atheist to do seeing as they deny everything and anything that can show God to exist.
As a student of science and technology I'm sure that you understand the importance of numbers. Our whole society is inundated with numbers. From your own description of your education you will easily understand what I'm talking about.
Scientists estimate there are 10<26 droplets of water in all the Earth's oceans. That would be a 10 with 26 zeros behind it. All the subatomic particles in the billions of galaxies each with its billions of huge stars would be something like 10<81. (10 with 81 zeros behind it.). A chess board is one of the least complex of items in the universe and yet there are an estimated 10<120 different chess moves. (120 zeros).
Our Earth is 8,000 miles in diameter, yet it is tiny compared to Jupiter which is 80,000 miles in diameter. Our sun is 800,000 miles in diameter. It would take one of our extremely fast jets over 33 days to fly from the surface of the sun to its core. Our sun consumes 4.2 million tons of its own subsance each second, yet it would take six billion more years for it to use one forty-thousandth of its mass. And on top of it all, our sun is just an averaged sized star.
How many stars are there in the universe. In our own Milky Way there are 100 billion stars, and there are approximately 10 billion galaxies like our own. There are more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand on all the beaches in all the Earth.
The above is barely scratching the surface of the incredible world we live in.
A living organism is far more amazing than a planet.. If there was a living organism that had only 100 parts it would have 10<158 (10 followed by 158 zeros) for these 100 parts to be linked up. All this and the most simple protein module that could be called living has 400 linked amino acids.
Anyone that can reason would understand that the chance explanation of life is an utter improbability. Each cell in your body has stored within it your complete genetic history and instructions on how to create another you. This would be equivalent to thirty volumes of the Encylopedia Britannica. The universe is far more beautiful than we can ever imagine.
How can such an amazing universe be explained? Was this all 'chance' or was it 'design'?
The common person reach their certitude about God's existence because they see in their straighforward manner that design is the only possible way to account for the complexities that lie in super abundance around us. To think otherwise would be to say that the wind stirred up all the scrap parts in a junk yard and when all the pieces stopped moving ---voila!!!!
There appeared a fully functional Corvette. (candy apple red with a nice wax job.)
Fighting Falcon, how can you possibly be an atheist??
Cataracts
|
|
|
|
Post by Far Rider on May 27, 2007 2:29:38 GMT -8
Give him time - he'll end up a Buddhist or something - anything but Christian because that's what the rest of us are.
Cat, this is typical of someone with no life experience searching for an identity. He's just substituted Ayn Rand for Jesus, textbooks for the Bible, and he quotes them with the same blind faith he claims Christians have.
People who claim to be atheists don't "know" any more than anybody else - they just think they do. I have become persuaded that the most vocal "atheists" - the ones you see over at THC mouthing off all the time - do in fact believe in God and can't stand it, which is why they are so obsessed in wanting God not to exist.
|
|
|
|
Post by FightingFalcon on May 27, 2007 3:09:56 GMT -8
Oh....my....god. I am so incredibly tired of that question. It makes no sense. You're taking the universe as it exists today and trying to argue that before this there was nothing. That animals and human beings in their current form have been like this for all eternity. Does the billion year long process of evolution mean nothing to you?
I'm not even a scientist but I wouldn't make ignorant comments like the universe was either designed or formed "by chance".
|
|
|
|
Post by FightingFalcon on May 27, 2007 7:03:48 GMT -8
Cut the melodramatics Mike - I dislike Islam, Buddhism, etc. just as much as I like Christianity. I'm an anti-Theist; not an anti-Christian.
O no! I've substituted academics and a thirst for objective knowledge for fantasy and supersition! Burn me at the stake!
|
|
|
|
Post by Far Rider on May 27, 2007 7:37:50 GMT -8
Yeah, it's a good thing you've got good old Ayn to tell you what to think.
Hell you might have even ended up with a cruiser, or worse, a touring bike.
We all know you're much too cool to succumb to things like propaganda and slick marketing.
|
|
|
|
Post by 101ABN on May 27, 2007 7:53:12 GMT -8
I'm not even a scientist but I wouldn't make ignorant comments like the universe was either designed or formed "by chance".
It wasn't a comment. It was a question.
"Was this all 'chance' or was it 'design'?"
So which is it?
Design?
Chance?
Perhaps a combination of the two?
Not many options, are there?
|
|
Dave
Junior Member
Posts: 46
|
Post by Dave on May 27, 2007 8:56:15 GMT -8
You feel "guilty" about doing "evil" becaue religion makes you feel that way. I myself do no harm to others, do not lie, cheat or steal and try to be open and honest in all my dealings. I don't need religion to keep me in line.
Why do you not lie, cheat, nor steal? Because you know it's wrong. How do you know it's wrong, since you are an athiest. See, this is what you guys can never reasonably answer. For all the talk of evolution, where did emotions come from? Birds become frantic when a storm approaches, a monkey gets pissed if you screw with him. I cry if I get kicked in the balls. Can evolution explain that? Where does guilt come from? In the long chain of evolution, when did we start to feel bad about our actions?
|
|
|
|
Post by MARIO on May 27, 2007 11:54:28 GMT -8
Perhaps the most educated man in this nation's history, Thomas Jefferson – a scientist of the first magnitude in so many areas of inquiry – saw in the universe what your children and my children are not permitted to hear, to consider, or to endeavor to prove:
"[W]ithout appeal to revelation," he told fellow founder John Adams on April 11, 1823:
I hold … that when we take a view of the universe, in its parts, general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to perceive and feel a conviction of design, consummate skill, and indefinite power in every atom of its composition. The movements of the heavenly bodies, so exactly held in their course by the balance centrifugal and centripetal forces; the structure of our earth itself, with its distribution of lands, waters and atmosphere; animal and vegetable bodies, examine in all their minutest particles; insects, mere atoms of life, yet as perfectly organized as man or mammoth; the mineral substances, their generation and uses; it is impossible, I say, for the human mind not to believe, that there is in all this, design, cause and effect, up to an ultimate cause, a fabricator of all things from matter and motion, their preserver and regulator while permitted to exist in their present forms, and their regeneration into new and other forms.
We see, too, evident proofs of the necessity of a superintending power, to maintain the universe in its course and order. Stars, well known, have disappeared, new ones have come into view; comets, in their incalculable courses, may run foul of suns and planets, and require renovation under other laws; certain races of animals are become extinct; and were there no restoring power, all existences might extinguish successively, one by one, until all should be reduced to a shapeless chaos. So irresistible are these evidences of an intelligent and powerful agent, that, of the infinite numbers of men who have existed through all time, they have believed, in the proportion of a million at least to unit, in the hypothesis of an eternal preexistence of a creator, rather than in that of a self-existent universe. Surely this unanimous sentiment renders this more probable, than that of the few in the other hypothesis.
|
|
|
|
Post by FightingFalcon on May 27, 2007 14:58:52 GMT -8
Other than the fact that its the Air Force's Honor Code? Because that's simply the way that I was raised as a human being. Because all of my historical heroes upheld the values of honesty, integrity, justice, etc. My greatest hero, Cato the Younger, was a pagan.
The argument that morality comes from religion is just stupid. Theists (particularly Christians) will openly admit that they pick and choose what morality from the Bible to follow. How do they know what parts of the Bible to pick and choose from? What tells us that killing homosexuals simply for being gay is wrong, despite the Bible telling us to do so? Morality does not come from religion - if it did, I wouldn't be a moral person.
Mario - one day you'll learn that you need to use your own arguments. I could honestly not care less if you find one quote from a historical figure to back your argument up. That doesn't make it any more or less true.
|
|
