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Post by Far Rider on Jun 30, 2007 9:53:18 GMT -8
Why is it that the most bitchy, nasty, disagreeable, and hateful atheists are ex-Catholics?
I could name names - there's a ton of them at THC.
And none of them seem to know jack shit about the faith they want to criticise, to wit: they think Christianity=Catholicism and most of the bitching they do is about the Catholic tradition. They have no clue about Protestant tradition, and therefore no clue about what a fairly large percentage of the church thinks, let alone how to argue against it.
So they make stuff up. If you are a Christian you are automatically "against science" (even if you collect a paycheck practicing it), speak in tounges, go to Nascar races, think the earth is 6000 years old, and flat.
Where do they get these asshole ideas from?
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Post by 101ABN on Jun 30, 2007 10:12:05 GMT -8
Most of them don't seem to have a very good handle on Catholicism either.
Since they reject faith out of hand, there is no attempt at understanding.
St Francis would not be pleased, I fear.
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Post by ReformedLiberal on Jun 30, 2007 10:28:35 GMT -8
When some clown was attacking a particular Mormon tradition as un-Christian, I gave him chapter and verse from the New Testament clearly showing the practice was common among early Christians. So how did he respond? He started in with references to gnostic texts (which reference several NT texts, btw), the Council of Nycea, and and other tangential minutae to argue against the validity of the Bible and the verses I cited. He had an argument for everything, and every one of them was wrong. Every time he got skunked, he just changed the subject.
He grasped at straws to defend his rejection of both God and religion, and apparently can't separate the two either.
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Post by AmericanPride on Jun 30, 2007 12:22:05 GMT -8
And they would be right, if you consider yourself a Catholic.
"There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved."
Fourth Lateran Council in 1215
"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her;
Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441)
"It is clear that this Roman Church is to all churches throughout the world as the head is to the members, and that whoever separates himself from it becomes an exile from the Christian religion, since he ceases to belong to it's fellowship."
Pope Boniface I
This is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. ... For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'"
Pope Leo XII
"For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood."
Pope Pius IX
"This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God's commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church."
Pope Leo XIII
"By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth."
Pope Pius XII
"They could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it."
Second Vatican Council
For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help towards salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained
Second Vatican Council
It is quite clear from these excerpts of Catholic belief and doctrine, that there exists only one true course to salvation, and that is through the Catholic Church. And while other "Christian" religions may have similarities, even to the extent that they may be called "brethen", by the nature of their seperation from the Church, they are not saved and therefore are not Christian.
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Post by cataracts on Jul 1, 2007 21:56:36 GMT -8
American Pride, you have looked with much dilligence to find rocks to throw at the Catholic Church. You have wasted your time as your investigation has proved that you do not know what you are talking about.
It's often been stated by the Church Fathers that "Outside the Church there is no salvation".
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Second Vatican Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on Earth, is necessary for salvation. The one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation. He is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Cahtolic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church.
Those who, through no falult of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and , moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience, those too may achieve eternal salvation.
Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.
What you have quoted is, for the most part, correct, you have interpreted every quote incorrectly. Have you rejected Christ and His Church or are you just ignorant. If it is ignorance on your part, then I suggest that you do a lot more praying. If it is rejection, then you are indeed in very deep waters of which you do not know the depths.
I'll pray for you.
Cataracts
ref: Lumen Gentium 14 and 16, Mark 16:16, John 3:5, Denzinger-Schonmetzer 1965
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Post by AmericanPride on Jul 2, 2007 5:22:49 GMT -8
That's what I said. Now that means you are ignorant or I am correct, or both.
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Post by cataracts on Jul 2, 2007 21:52:32 GMT -8
AP,
If there were no Catholic Church there would be no one going to Heaven. Jesus founded one Church. The name of that Church is the Catholic Church. This is the truth whether you like it or approve of it, or not.
Cataracts
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Post by AmericanPride on Jul 3, 2007 7:32:35 GMT -8
Which is explained by the quotes I provided above. Now you're just talking in order to preach. I already have a priest, thanks.
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Post by cataracts on Jul 3, 2007 22:16:46 GMT -8
AP,
You can disreguard the Church and what it teaches all you want. You and only you have the responsibility for your actions. What the Catholic Church teaches is the truth. I would say that most Protestants don't believe or understand this. So, maybe they are not culpable. However, from what I have read of your comments you do know the truth. You have willingly rejected the truth. It's all in your ballpark.
Why do I doubt that you have a priest?
C.
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