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Post by 101ABN on Jul 20, 2012 6:59:04 GMT -8
The smoke hasn't even cleared in Aurora, CO shootings but the gungrabbers are already gearing up to attack your constitutional right to keep and bear arms. This tweet from NYC Mayor Bloomberg: @ MikeBloomberg : It's time for the presidential candidates to step up & tell us what they'll do about guns in America" and this fascist rant on HuffPo. www.huffingtonpost.com/matthew-chapman/gun-control-rio-de-janeir_b_1689474.html#commentsBe sure to scroll down and read the comments, especiall this one... "Social change requires deep new thinking, which is antithetical to the fearmongering promoted by old white religious traditional republican backwoods agenda. Having said that, the only way to implement it in this country is to let those die the horrible death they deserve." And they call us haters. |
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Post by Arethusa on Jul 20, 2012 9:08:59 GMT -8
I wish we could retrieve the excellent CE dialogue at THC that followed the shootings at the Gifford rally in Tucson that came to center on this society's allowing the potentially criminally insane to walk freely among us. I'm speaking here of the change in the laws that closed the state hospitals in the 80's in the name of cost savings based on the new "wonder" drugs that allegedly could replace face to face treatment and hospitalization. I haven't done a tally but the list of similar atrocities committed in places the public once deemed safe has become rather long since then. The Huber shootings at a San Diego, CA McDonalds The Segrist shootings at Springfield, PA Shopping Mall The Columbine Massacre The Tucson shootings The Aurora Massacre I say this only because I don't believe the issue here is guns. I believe that we need to get back our courage to hospitalize the paranoid schizophrenics whose "voices" are telling them to commit these acts against humankind. I don't know yet if this Holmes character is among them, but consider this. He's a 24 year old PhD student reportedly in the process of withdrawing from the U of Colorado His mother no sooner heard the news when she gasped "They've got the right person!" Link with photo from Yahoo News: news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/suspect-neuroscience-phd-student-photo-released-160848135.html?_esi=1Schizophrenia can emerge at any age, but generally rears its ugliness in the late teens or early twenties. Mind you, most sufferers are non-violent and tend to live their lives in isolation with support from families and significant others. There are those, however, who either recently developed the disease, or who rigidly refuse treatment, including the regular taking of medication to treat it. Is the perpetrator here an undiagnosed, untreated paranoid psychotic who became a walking time bomb? I'm waiting now for more information to come out. Arethusa  |
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Post by 101ABN on Jul 20, 2012 9:41:01 GMT -8
"I'm speaking here of the change in the laws that closed the state hospitals in the 80's in the name of cost savings based on the new "wonder" drugs that allegedly could replace face to face treatment and hospitalization."
There was more to it than that, Muffin.
There was an entire movement within the mental health community beginning in the 70s that suggested that the mentally ill would do better if they were mainstreamed into society.
This movement lobbied heavily against institutionalization, making it a civil rights issue.
Unfortunately, this philosophy was followed to its extreme resulting in a virtual emptying of MH institutions, most of which were closed because operating costs could not be justified given the small number of patients still in them, who were either transferred to other remaining institutions or referred to outpatient clinincs.
Many of these individuals fell through the cracks and became a part of the wave of homelessness (or homelessness awareness) that surfaced in the 80s.
This Is truly worth a thread of its own elsewhere, I'd like to keep this one on 2A.
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Post by Arethusa on Jul 20, 2012 11:26:59 GMT -8
"I'm speaking here of the change in the laws that closed the state hospitals in the 80's in the name of cost savings based on the new "wonder" drugs that allegedly could replace face to face treatment and hospitalization." There was more to it than that, Muffin. There was an entire movement within the mental health community beginning in the 70s that suggested that the mentally ill would do better if they were mainstreamed into society. This movement lobbied heavily against institutionalization, making it a civil rights issue. Unfortunately, this philosophy was followed to its extreme resulting in a virtual emptying of MH institutions, most of which were closed because operating costs could not be justified given the small number of patients still in them, who were either transferred to other remaining institutions or referred to outpatient clinincs. Many of these individuals fell through the cracks and became a part of the wave of homelessness (or homelessness awareness) that surfaced in the 80s. This Is truly worth a thread of its own elsewhere, I'd like to keep this one on 2A. **** Yes, Grizz - have been reading around the net news sites for further information and found none on this issue. They haven't hit on it yet, although, word out from the Colorado Governor's office is that the perp is a "deranged" individual. Whether that will surface requestioning of the perfect storm clusterfuck that you described and is pretty well documented - from Reagan era outsourcing, to the APA's and big pharma's pushing of psychomeds to the ACLU's fight to allow the Holmeses of the world to walk the streets among us - still waits to be seen. Here again, I'm speaking only about the clearly psychotic individuals whose "voices" urge violence and destruction in the world around them and are walking time bombs just waiting to explode. I'm thinking of starting the thread you've suggested, although I believe this issue is a good counterpoint to early panic over the loss of gun rights because another nutbag managed to get hold of a few and shoot up another public place in America. My condolences to all who have been touched by another such tragedy. Arethusa |
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Post by dustdevil28 on Jul 20, 2012 11:41:46 GMT -8
Early reports indicate the man may have obtained the weapons illegally, but so it goes.
In the end the man used guns to kill people and that's all the left cares about. More gun laws would not have prevented this incident from occurring, and until the left can point out how, I'll remain a firm supporter of the second amendment.
-DD
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Post by 101ABN on Jul 20, 2012 14:34:37 GMT -8
"They haven't hit on it yet, although, word out from the Colorado Governor's office is that the perp is a "deranged" individual."
Brilliant!!!! What was his first clue?
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Post by peterd on Jul 20, 2012 14:58:40 GMT -8
Now since the Small Arms Treaty suppose to be signed soon, this traggedy will be used to push on senate to ratify it. Libs will cry even more to get rid of guns because they cause crime. Since government and law enforcement agencies are unable to control illegal weapons market, next best thing will be to go after responsible gun owners. I am sure that criminals will love that. They don't need to follow the law.
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Post by Arethusa on Jul 20, 2012 15:22:37 GMT -8
"They haven't hit on it yet, although, word out from the Colorado Governor's office is that the perp is a "deranged" individual." Brilliant!!!! What was his first clue? *** Like a typical politician, he was probably engaging in the hyperbolic response Holmes' crimes clearly demand from any rational person. On the other hand, the good Governor may unwittingly have handed the perp a "get out of the gallows free" card by deeming him insane right off the bat. Ever since Nixon declared Manson guilty, defense lawyers have had a field day with such pronouncements from elected officials, whether or not they are true. In any event, what hasn't surfaced yet is discussion about how 80's public policy regarding the non-prison incarceration of individuals deemed to be a danger to society may have led to the myriad of tragedies like the one we are processing now. As for the 2A theme of this thread, the Heller decision placed the U.S. Supremes' imprimatur on the right to keep a gun for protection in the home - implementing the 2nd Amendment as the rationale therefor for the first time in its history. There has been no suggestion since then of any possibility of its reversal. But that is not the issue here. To get this back to your "2A" theme, I'll suggest the topic of controversial concealed and open carry laws running up against business owners who don't want guns on their premises. Is the answer to carry anyway with the risk of getting caught, or not - given that these events do not happen 24/7 every day of the year in a potential hundreds of millions of places throughout the country? A pleasant evening and weekend to you and all, and thoughts and prayers for the lost and the wounded in Aurora and their families, loved ones and friends. Arethusa/Muffin |
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Post by Sailor on Jul 20, 2012 16:28:21 GMT -8
Now since the Small Arms Treaty suppose to be signed soon, this traggedy will be used to push on senate to ratify it. Libs will cry even more to get rid of guns because they cause crime. Since government and law enforcement agencies are unable to control illegal weapons market, next best thing will be to go after responsible gun owners. I am sure that criminals will love that. They don't need to follow the law. Emphasis mine. Exactly right Pete. Even in nations that have "total" gun control the criminal element is still able to arm itself with any weapon it chooses right up through heavy military grade weapons. I read many of the rants following that HuffPo article 101, I have to ask ... which other rights would these people be willing to give up? Free speech and freedom of the press? Or perhaps the 4th and 5th Amendment protections against unreasonable and unwarranted searches and seizure or self incrimination? These were written into the Bill of Rights at the same time as the Second Amendment, they are just as old and, according to some, just as out of date as the Second. I'm getting to be an old man, incapable of standing up to 17 year old and older thugs who prey on people like me. Give me a big cop to follow me around all day as a body guard and I might think about giving up my weapons ... nor not. |
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Post by peterd on Jul 20, 2012 17:54:12 GMT -8
I'm getting to be an old man, incapable of standing up to 17 year old and older thugs who prey on people like me. Give me a big cop to follow me around all day as a body guard and I might think about giving up my weapons ... nor not.[/quote]
I would not count on that majority of people will give up their weapons. Freedom to to precious to give it up. Our military past and present fought so we could have it. I am not a spring chicken, I know how is that feel not having freedom of choice. I know the word oppression very well. I came to the US for the precious commodity and that is freedom. I am not giving up my freedom for anything else. I may gone down, but I will go down as free man. Life without freedom is no life.
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Post by Sailor on Jul 21, 2012 10:05:20 GMT -8
Pete, I wish more people could see the issue of freedom through your eyes. I comprehend what you are saying, but then I've traveled more of the world than most of the people who take our freedoms and rights for granted.
I was born and raised here in the U.S. and like them took those freedoms and rights for granted. But then I signed on with Uncle's Canoe Club and got a chance to see some of the rest of the world and the conditions that others have to live in or under.
To say "my eyes were opened" is nearly an understatement.
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Post by peterd on Jul 21, 2012 10:39:04 GMT -8
It is difficult for people to see the samething as I do. Most of them were born here and as you said they are taking freedom for granted. Majority of people in the US have anout 250 miles vission radius. In most cases they were born in one town, went to school in the same town or near vicinity, got married in place, and will die in the same place. That is why most depend on media and politicians to provide them with information. That is why most of them are brainwashed by their own choice. They know word freedom, but they do not know how to defend it in time of needs.
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Post by 101ABN on Jul 21, 2012 13:41:55 GMT -8
Go to HuffPo or any ouher leftwing site and read the comments.
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Post by Sailor on Jul 22, 2012 7:00:12 GMT -8
Go to HuffPo or any ouher leftwing site and read the comments. I've read about all of it that I can stomach 101, thanks. A few minutes ago I listened to an interview with Diane Feinstein on Fox News Sunday and the point of view she voiced is that anything not intended for use in hunting should be outlawed, period. She ranted on "assault weapons" in the hands of the public, Chris Wallace correctly pointing out to her that what she termed as "assault weapons" are semi-automatic rifles, not automatics. She ranted on "100 round clips" and ignored the fact pointed out by Senator Johnson that this madman also had teargas grenades (no civilian outside of police is supposed to be able to obtain) and build some sophisticated incendiaries to destroy his apartment with all its evidence. I pointed out in another posting that the criminal element is going to be able to obtain any weapon it wants regardless of the laws. In Holme's case his incindearies appear to have been homemade out of more or less common materials and some at least were hypergolics, mix two or more ingredients and they explode or ignite with no further trigger needed. Gun bans don't work. Period. In Chicago and other cities or states with highly restrictive gun laws what are the firearm related murder rates like? Chicago is vying with Washington DC as the murder capital of the nation. Both have draconian gun laws. The theater where this act of violence took place has rules in line with the laws that permit the owner to restrict access to those carrying weapons. Worked real well, didn't it? There was only one armed individual in the building at the time. In the interview, when the point was brought up that if there had been other armed citizens in that auditorium and that one of them MIGHT have been able to limit the damage that Holmes was doing Feinstein went off, ranting about how many could have been shot in a firefight. Well duh, 12 dead and more than 50 others shot. It could get worse than that if one or two armed citizens who know what they are doing engaged him? It's possible, maybe. But even with body armor Holmes might have been forced to retreat and cut the slaughter short. One might even have gotten lucky and found an opening in the protection Holmes was wearing, his face perhaps and ended the death and destruction right there and then before the toll got as high as it did. Gun control does not fucking work. |
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Post by 101ABN on Jul 22, 2012 7:55:44 GMT -8
"A few minutes ago I listened to an interview with Diane Feinstein on Fox News Sunday and the point of view she voiced is that anything not intended for use in hunting should be outlawed, period."
DiFi's been a gun grabber for decades.
I wonder if she has a clue how many people hunt with rifles built on the AR platform in calibers from .22LR to .50 Beowulf.
Intent is in the mind of the end user.
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