|
|
Post by sgt0311usmc on May 9, 2006 22:34:53 GMT -8
What will happen in the future when they will kidnap some Americans oversees and hold out for Musaouri's release?
It WILL happen - and how will (whatever president) react?
And what will THAT response lead to?
|
|
|
|
Post by AmericanPride on May 9, 2006 22:57:01 GMT -8
Find the families of the kidnappers and hold them as "collateral".
|
|
|
|
Post by bounce on May 10, 2006 7:12:15 GMT -8
Find the families of the kidnappers and hold them as "collateral". Makes a great case for keeping him alive, doesn't it? |
|
|
|
Post by AmericanPride on May 10, 2006 7:17:53 GMT -8
It's a dog-eat-dog world sometimes.
I rather not be eaten.
Maybe one day killing, "interrogations", and spying won't be necessary. But I won't hold my breath.
|
|
|
|
Post by sgt0311usmc on May 10, 2006 14:17:55 GMT -8
Find the families of the kidnappers and hold them as "collateral". In one of the first (& Few) actually successful counter-kidnapper op's; Col Mitch WerBell (Later inventor of the highly successful MAC-9/10/11 series of submachine guns & founder of Cobray & Sionics Industries - the first manufacturer of combat effective, mass-produced SMG Suppressors) was contacted by coca-cola (pepsi?) in the mid-late 70's, about 3 of their executives that had been kidnapped in central America. The kidnappers (I forget which marxist band of comanchero's it was - I could look it up) were demanding ... $10 Million(?) for their return, and sent a finger from each one to show that they meant business. Col WerBell did a recon to the country, (re)established some contacts & reported back to Coca cola that it would cost $1Million TOTAL to get them back, alive. Coke paid, and he went down. OO-OO! Wait a minute - Kelly Bundy & Tia Carrerra having a cat-fight at a modelling contest .......   ;D OK - Short version - WerBell went down, spread some cash, found the families of the Terr's, took polaroids of them, and set-up a pay-off to the terr's. At the pay-off, WerBell DIDN'T pay, but instead sent them the photo's & the following message: "These are your families. We know who they are, and we know who you are. If you do NOT return the American Executives within 3 days, UNHARMED, I will do the following: I will
Kill your children,
Kill your wives,
Kill your parents,
Kill your neighbors,
Kill your chickens, your dogs, and your pigs,
Burn your village to the ground, and scatter the ashes -
Then,
We're coming to kill you, and anyone who's helped you, and anybody who's ever heard of you".2 Days later, the 3 executives were found stumbling down a jungle road, no further harm having come to them. When He reported to coke, they asked what happened to the rest of the money. He said - "I'm paid". (This was the money he used to start Cobray with, which finaced Sionics. NOTE: No coke personnel were ever bothered again. OBJECT LESSON # 2Back in '84, when everyone was getting kidnapped by shiite radicals (supported by & reporting to Iran) in Beirut; they made the mistake of kidnapping a soviet embassy functionary off the street (Possibly killed his EP in the process). Within 5 hours, 4-5 local shiite clerics were snatched-up off the streets, and out of their homes. One was killed & dumped in a public place from a speeding (stolen) car, another was dumped (beaten & duct-taped) off near his mosque, just at the start of evening prayers. (With a message, it's believed). 2-3 hours later - The (well-beaten, then hastily cleaned-up) soviet was dumped out onto the street in front of the soviet embassy. A few hours later; one more cleric was found dead (perhaps a message?), the rest were found similarly beaten, duct-taped & dumped in front of their homes. NOTE: No soviet was ever messed with in Lebanon, or anywhere else (outside Afghanistan) again. Oh, and, the soviet PEOPLE never complained about it - in fact NOBODY ever lodged ANY complaint. And then, on the other hand, there's the typical aclu-approved US response. (And let's not forget France & Italy's 30 years of open complicity with international terr's)... |
|
|
|
Post by MrDoublel on May 10, 2006 20:42:00 GMT -8
As "Evil" as the KGB (and Soviet Union) was, they knew the rules and played by them. You cross the line and you paid for it. Thanks to the likes of Carter and Clinton/Gore they have hamstrung our intelligence community.
Sadly it is becoming harder to sleep peacefully in my bed because limp wristed, spineless liberals have made it hard for rough men to do violence on our behalf.
I love Objective lesson #1. Don't forget how Massad handled those who pulled off Munich.
|
|
|
|
Post by FightingFalcon on May 10, 2006 20:46:20 GMT -8
Are we honestly contemplating using the same tactics as the Soviet Union? The Evil Empire? One of the most evil countries to have ever existed? A country that ran over peaceful protestors with tanks and is responsible for more deaths than any other country in the world, save possibly Red China?
I just wanna get this straight.....
Kinda makes the Cold War pointless if we just wanna turn around and become the new USSR.
"Oh, and, the soviet PEOPLE never complained about it - in fact NOBODY ever lodged ANY complaint."
Probably because those who would have complained would have disappeared and never heard from again...........
|
|
|
|
Post by MrDoublel on May 11, 2006 3:49:37 GMT -8
None of us are saying the CIA use the same tactics the KGB did. But, when dealing with some of these groups they only understand power and strength. If you show them that you ar strong and have the power to cause them harm they will respond to that. They see compassion as weakness. Deal with them harshly and they will think twice about how they deal with you.
|
|
|
|
Post by sgt0311usmc on May 11, 2006 12:00:34 GMT -8
Are we honestly contemplating using the same tactics as the Soviet Union? The Evil Empire? One of the most evil countries to have ever existed? A country that ran over peaceful protestors with tanks and is responsible for more deaths than any other country in the world, save possibly Red China? I just wanna get this straight..... Kinda makes the Cold War pointless if we just wanna turn around and become the new USSR. "Oh, and, the soviet PEOPLE never complained about it - in fact NOBODY ever lodged ANY complaint." Probably because those who would have complained would have disappeared and never heard from again........... FF, I anticipated this response; possibly from you. SFC says it right. NO, we're NOT proposing that WE BECOME the soviet union. But, as the difference between bombing, then fire-bombing, then A-Bombing Japan shows (in addition to the object lessons above) - sometimes, evil force must be met with an object lesson - "screw with us again, and neither you, nor anyone who's ever heard of you, will be around to regret it". Like I said - they've never been screwed with again - on the other hand, I suggest you look up the name "Buckley" in the Beirut context; "TWA flight 847"/"U.S. Navy diver Robert Stethem"; the history of the USS Higgins (DDG-76); & "24th MAU - Oct 23, '83". When you're dealing with animals who have neither respect for the international rules of conduct, nor even a sense of self-preservation - there IS no reasoning with them. They're following a creedo/pseudo-religion begun 1000 years ago (look-up the roots of the word "assassin" (Hashshashin). As dedicated as the ninja were, at least THEY were not generally self-motivated. Cutting off the head of the hydra rarely STOPS them - sooner or later, at least a few of them will get the idea that all they need is a vehicle & semtex, and RPG, an AK - and it's "mission-GO" again. There's ONLY 2 ways to stop them. Kill them all (impossible, or impractical) or ensure that their leadership knows that THEY'RE the counter-target; so that they withdraw the orders - (Hypocritically) out of their (amazingly undevout) sense of PERSONAL self-preservation. In retrospect - HAD we sent-in a force (air, land - whatever - I leave the detailed planning to the experts) and wiped-out Khomeni & the Iranian government in response for their support of terrorist acts in Beirut & elsewhere, AND left the message that "THIS IS THE WAGES OF EXPORTING & SUPPORTING TERRORISM" - we would probably have had a different last 30 years since. (And 9/11 might not have ever happened). You plan on joining the military - I don't doubt your patriotism - BUT, someday, YOU MIGHT be called upon to bomb some 3rd-party country in response to an act of terrorism. What will you do then? Can't happen? I suggest that you research the US response to "disco bombed in germany - GI's Killed - US (Reagan's) Response" - By the way - THAT little crackpot wailed, stomped his sandals, cried out to the court of public opinion, gnashed HIS teeth - & got out of the Terr business. |
|
|
|
Post by AmericanPride on May 11, 2006 13:15:34 GMT -8
James--
Obviously we should not abduct or torture our own citizens. We have laws that protect our personal dignity and honor. But these concepts of law, rights, and dignity do not exist outside the bounds of our political reach. We are under no moral - and arguably legal - obligation to provide for the well-being of terrorists. We should always be striving forwards towards their destruction in whatever form that may come until at such point they cease in their activities. If that requires their annihilation from the face of the earth - including their families and friends - that is a necessary fact of life, and we should not be dissuaded from guarding our liberty and our people's life with jealousy and rage because of doubtful minds and broken spirits. This is NOT the time for debate. This is the time for swift decisive action that will produce an enduring victory.
|
|
|
|
Post by MrDoublel on May 11, 2006 21:32:46 GMT -8
Let me put it this way James. I love my God, my country, my wife and family and my fellow soldiers (even Dumas, as annoying as he can be.) If I have to beat the living crap out of some guy in order to save someone alses life, well, it's gunna suck to be that guy. Killing women or children? I couldn't do or condone that but you let these animals know things can get ugly and they will cave.
|
|
|
|
Post by FightingFalcon on May 12, 2006 6:27:58 GMT -8
*Sigh* I feel like the token liberal on this board....even though I really hate them.
I have no problem with the fire-bombing of Dresden/Tokyo or the dropping of the Atomic bomb on Japan because it was against legitimate targets in a wartime enviornment.
When we start to abduct family members of terrorists and hold them hostage....that's when I start getting nervous that we are becoming terrorists ourselves.
As long as you're talking about punishing those RESPONSIBLE, sure. I used to always get into arguments with my mother because she once told me that she wanted to be-head Zarqawi's family. I was like wow Mom....that's disgusting.
I'm a History major with a concentration in Christian-Moslem military history....I know all about their militant past.
Again, I think everyone is missing what I'm saying here. If you want to kill those responsible - I'm all for it. Hell, I'll do the killing myself.
When you advocate killing innocent bystanders, that's when I start to have serious objections.
If the 3rd Party is guilty of terrorism or supporting terrorism, I'll pull the trigger myself. If the 3rd party is a random Islamic cleric who has hasn't even advocated using force against America or our allies, then I'd never follow that order. I won't intentionally kill innocent people unless they are a legitimate target in a wartime enviornment, e.g. the atomic bombs. But total wars like WWII are hopefully a thing of the past.
The raid on Qadaffi that you are referring to was carried out beacuse we thought that he was in the convoy. I highly doubt that Reagan wanted to kill his family and not him.
|
|
|
|
Post by FightingFalcon on May 12, 2006 6:34:16 GMT -8
Clearly you haven't read about what the Bush administration has been doing to our own civilians, aka Jose Padilla.
No, that sounds like something that a Nazi would agree to.
Czech partisans killed a Nazi officer? Fine - let's level the whole city of Lidice. Is that how we should act?
|
|
|
|
Post by FightingFalcon on May 12, 2006 6:37:35 GMT -8
"Get ugly" - what exactly does that mean? Does that mean we kill random bystanders or no?
I'd agree to intentionally killing civilians so long as they present a legitimate target, e.g. are openly supporting terrorism. You will never get me to agree to intentionally killing civilians who have nothing to do with the conflict though.
|
|
|
|
Post by AmericanPride on May 12, 2006 8:47:04 GMT -8
James---
Just because I didn't make an immediate and public condemnation of Jose Padilla in that particular post does not in anyway indicate what I think about the subject.
We are in a war for survival. The enemy is not an isolated individual. He is a collection of ideological individuals with family and social connections. He is integrated in his part of the world. These - among other things - are his "support assets" that may certainly require destruction. If killing his family means protecting American lives from more death - then that is an option needing to be considered. War is costly. To win we must make it more expensive for the enemy.
Until there is peace - that is how it should be.
|
|
;D
