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Post by cameron on May 16, 2006 5:13:44 GMT -8
"You mean like a driver's license and a social security card? It would suck to have to produce those, right?" Yes if I don't want to, I've the right to say no. "Would that be like the same driver's license and Social Security card I've had to produce before beginning work on MY LAST FOUR JOBS??? Ya it would, my social security number is no ones business and I can not be forced to produce it. In fact it is against the law for any one to require it as identification, even though that is how it is used. I have the right to tell a police officer to piss off if he asks for id if I haven't done anything wrong, and I have done just that in the past. "I don't get what's so fucking hard about following the law. I don't get what's so fucking hard about distinguishing between true criminals and those who in many cases risk there lives to come here to escape poverty, and provide for themselves and their families. Yes please lets not make any distinctions between real criminals, and a child who steals a loaf of bread to feed himself. It is strange to me to hear conservatives be such blind law-worshipers. I would have thought here of all places, there would be those that understand that the law itself has no intrinsic value, it is what the law prohibits that is either good/bad. "It's inconvenient? Tough shit! Bite me "And every asshole caught with a fake ID ought to get a year of hard time prior to deportation and every asshole selling fake IDs (a HUGE industry in greater L.A.) ought to be looking at 10 years. How long did it take Hitler to round up 6 million Jews? I'm sure we could be much more efficient. |
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Post by bounce on May 16, 2006 6:06:37 GMT -8
"You mean like a driver's license and a social security card? It would suck to have to produce those, right?" Yes if I don't want to, I've the right to say no. This is funny. You damn sure don't have to produce them! However, you also don't earn the privilege of driving on our streets, using your own credit cards (if challenged for ID) or getting gainful employment if the employer wants to verify information required to be sent to the IRS. I'd encourage you to NOT CARRY AND PRODUCE THEM! Put up that fight! LOL Works for me, but I've gotta say, you're living in a dream world. In these days of identity thefts, illegal immigrants and the like, refusal to provide your "papers" might not be the best decision. If a COP asks you to produce identification and you refuse... I'd love a video of that encounter. If I'm your employer and I want to verify the tax data I'm required to send the IRS... And I ask you for it and your refuse to produce it... I will refuse you employment. Especially in light of the illegal problems I have, why deal with THAT hassle? I'm not going to expose myself to committing a crime just because someone cannot (or will not) produce documents confirming their identity and IRS tax data. Illegal immigrants ARE CRIMINALS and many of them are felons! They're not here to steal a loaf of bread. Moreover, I don't know if you've seen some of those photos of the illegals trying to sneak over the southern border, but many are fat pigs! They're anything but starving! LOL That was a really nice try Cameron, but it ain't working. We cannot support the entire fucking world. Moreover, if they want to come here, they can do it legally like our forefathers did. If the rest of the world wants prosperity, they can EARN IT FOR THEMSELVES! It's NOT up to us to provide it for them, nor is it possible. Many of the coyotes smuggle human traffic on one day and drug traffic the next. We need to shut down the entire fucking enterprise. Yeah, and it amazes me that any self-respecting "conservative" would stand up and proudly say, "Fuck the law!" (that would be YOU BTW) There are some here who love this country and don't want to see it handed over to a hundred million Mexicans that want us to cover their bills! Hey, it may come down to that. "And every asshole caught with a fake ID ought to get a year of hard time prior to deportation and every asshole selling fake IDs (a HUGE industry in greater L.A.) ought to be looking at 10 years. How long did it take Hitler to round up 6 million Jews? I'm sure we could be much more efficient. Your attempt to lump us in with Hitler is mindless. Last I checked, we weren't planning on building ovens down next to the wall. Hitler was intent on genocide. We're trying to protect our country. If you are really down to this kind of shit to defend your position, then I accept your surrender on the issue. Our agenda is to make it very hard to get here (build a wall) and then turn OFF the enticements by aggressively enforcing existing law. We don't HAVE to round them up. Once they find it nearly impossible to find work, find a place to live and sign up for welfare, they'll want to leave on their own. You seem to have a big problem with the INS. Again I say, "SO WHAT?" That's a different issue completely. You have a big problem showing your "papers." I say, "Fine." Driving is not a right, it's a privilege. Employment is not a right either. So, don't produce your "papers." Works for me. Once your employer sees a few "perp-walks" on the nightly news, they will DEMAND to see yours as a condition of ongoing employment. If that's just too painful to endure, may I suggest going to a country that doesn't require all this shit... Mexico, for instance. |
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Post by 101ABN on May 16, 2006 6:09:11 GMT -8
"Yes if I don't want to, I've the right to say no."
And the employer is required to fill out an I-9 stating he has sighted certain documents. The requirement is typically met by producing a DL and SS card.
If you can't produce them, he can't legally hire you.
Sounds like you're spoiling for a fight here.
I'll be happy to oblige you later. Time for work now.
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Post by bounce on May 16, 2006 6:24:01 GMT -8
One other thing Cameron, I am really surprised by your attitude.
I am taking your claim of being here "Legally" at face value. I'm not disputing you, nor am I saying I disbelieve you.
However, I know a few LEGAL immigrants and, to a person, they are TOTALLY AGAINST illegal immigration, amnesty or guest-worker status for anyone currently IN THIS COUNTRY.
They played by the rules. They had to endure the bullshit. So why give all that up for free to millions of people who just walked across the border illegally?
Moreover, it depresses THEIR wage scale because there are too many people chasing too few jobs. The "LEGAL" immigrants I know would LOVE IT if we slammed the border shut, rounded up the illegals and deported the lot of them.
That's what I find curious about your attitude. You are 180 degrees out of phase with the "Legal immigrant" mentality I know of. Your attitude is very curious indeed.
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Post by cameron on May 16, 2006 6:53:12 GMT -8
One other thing Cameron, I am really surprised by your attitude. I am taking your claim of being here "Legally" at face value. I'm not disputing you, nor am I saying I disbelieve you. However, I know a few LEGAL immigrants and, to a person, they are TOTALLY AGAINST illegal immigration, amnesty or guest-worker status for anyone currently IN THIS COUNTRY. They played by the rules. They had to endure the bullshit. So why give all that up for free to millions of people who just walked across the border illegally? Moreover, it depresses THEIR wage scale because there are too many people chasing too few jobs. The "LEGAL" immigrants I know would LOVE IT if we slammed the border shut, rounded up the illegals and deported the lot of them. That's what I find curious about your attitude. You are 180 degrees out of phase with the "Legal immigrant" mentality I know of. Your attitude is very curious indeed. I march to my own drummer Bounce always have. I stand up for what I believe popular opinion is not a concern. People are for the most part sheep especially immigrants. In fact I would not be surprised if most of them sound more nativist then the natives to show how well assimilated they are and that there is no question of their loyalty. That's not how I demonstrate my loyalty. I demonstrate mine by standing up for what I believe in my heart of hearts so as to help keep the nation I love from going astray. Not a sheep, sorry to disappoint ya. Oh I do know an illegal who came here as a young man married another illegal who came here as a child. They now have one child in the Marines and another who is at a private school on a scholarship and just last week her counselor told her parents she was definitely Harvard material. Lets round these illegals up and ship them out. STUPID IDIOCY if you ask me. 101 says they are criminals bullshit They are criminals in the same sense that the kid that steals a loaf of bread to keep from starving is a criminal. Yep I have no problem standing up against the law when it is unjust. Like to think I would have made a great abolitionist. I'm an American because I chose to be one, you just happened to be born here by accident. How do you like that. Don't question my loyalty. You didn't understand my last post I have told police officers to go fish when asked for ID. If they don't have a legitimate reason to stop me they have no right to demand my papers. That is the kind of conservative I am and why I love this country. I'm a Scott through and through or at least that is where my father said I came by this attitude.  |
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Post by MARIO on May 16, 2006 9:14:22 GMT -8
Cameron, I truly don't know how you could support this illegal invasion.
Can you give us an idea of where you're coming from on this issue?
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Post by cameron on May 16, 2006 9:45:12 GMT -8
Mario I support the idea of building a real wall, an honest to goodness wall, to help prevent people from coming here illegally. But lets be honest and realistic about those that are here already. If any of them marched in those parades of last week I would have supported pulling paddy wagons up and shipping them out right then and there. I actually think that is what should have been done.
So now we want a war on illegals do we? When are we ever going to learn to work with market forces and not against them? How did the "war on alcohol" go? Oh that's right we gave up on that one. Well how about the war on poverty? Ya that worked out real well. Oh lets not forget the “war on drugs” that one is sure to be successful. I mean we've only been at that one for what 30 years or so with no sign of success in sight. The fact is there is a market here for labor that they provide, and the fact that we are, for all intense and purposes at full employment, put the lie to the fact that they are taking jobs away from Americans. Most of these people are hard working law abiding salt of the earth decent human beings! They are a net asset not a net liability. Lets secure the border, but lets be honest about the vast of majority of those that are here already. And lets be honest about the contributions they make.
If you can’t keep contraband out of a prison due to market forces what makes you think you can seal our southern border without recognizing we need the labor they provide as much as they need the jobs we provide? It is not realistic and it's not going to work. For crying out loud this is basic stuff that conservatives should have a working understanding of. The vast majority of these "illegals" work for small business not large corporations. The only way you could enforce the law is to turn the country into a police state and that is not going to happen, so all you are going to do is increase the size of the underground economy, and not fix the problem. We have real enemies to worry about and they don't happen to be some dirt poor peasant trying to do whatever he can to put food on the table. Our real enemies must be laughing at our stupidity. I'm going to tell you, I'm not suggesting anyone here is a racist, but an awful lot of what I hear some conservatives say is starting to sound a lot like racism to me.
Oh ya and those who say they are going to punish the Republicans by staying home this fall. Great idea, it's not like I didn't see this coming I did and said so in this very form. I should go look through my old posts. Anyway just like the moonbats, holding a gun to your own head and promising to pull the trigger, brilliant absolutely brilliant. If were are lucky it give the Democrats enough momentum to get Hillary elected in 08, OOPS. Oh and don't try to sell me we can win by lossing BS you sound just like a Dumbocrat.
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Post by bounce on May 16, 2006 9:50:56 GMT -8
OK Cameron, so you know ONE FAMILY (out of millions) who contribute to this country. That's still irrelevant!
You are trying to say that "Conservatives" (real conservatives) only abide the laws we choose to and are free to say "FUCK IT" to the rest.
Well, that is completely untrue.
As far as "sounding" more like Americans than Americans do... That is completely untrue as it pertains to Mexicans. I agree their kids (who learned English in school) speak like we do, but many of the parents don't speak English at all!
As far as rounding them up and shipping them out, I don't want to go to that kind of trouble. They came on their own and they can leave on their own when ALL OPPORTUNITY TO BENEFIT from their illegal activity dries up.
So I was born here, so what? You seem to think that makes me lucky. I say "BULLSHIT!" What makes this country great is freedom. If these illegals want a great country, they have the power to band together and create one, or do what it takes to get here legally. That's what my forefathers had to do. IT AIN'T FREE AND IT AIN'T CHEAP!
Now, as it pertains to people like DStauffer and his step-daughter, I do agree that we need to fix our current system, but that has nothing to do with how to treat the illegals already here. If they want to get here legally and avoid deportation if we happen to find them, they should have to leave and then apply to get back in. To break our law and then demand we turn a blind eye to that really screws people like DStauffer's step-daughter who really do want to play by the rules and get here legally. I am all for assisting people like her become a citizen.
You say you want to stand up to the law when it's unjust... surely you know there is a right and wrong way to do that. Simply ignoring the law and then breaking it makes you a criminal. That's what the illegals are doing. I damn sure WILL question your loyalty if you pull that shit!
AND, BTW, if a COP asks you for your ID and you don't think they have the right to do so, you'd damn sure better hand it over or you ass is headed to jail. That's a decision I would love to see a video of.
One last question... Do you look at yourself like that guy with the sword? Whose blood is on the sword? Since you clearly wouldn't draw it against the illegal immigrants INVADING this country, I can only assume it's the blood of people like 101 and myself who would defend this country AGAINST the invasion.
Why don't you "splain" that one to me.
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Post by FightingFalcon on May 16, 2006 9:52:30 GMT -8
Bravo Cameron!
I know we've had some differences on the Ireland issue but I'm 100% with you on this.
Hell yea! That's exactly how I feel. Unless I've done something wrong....get out of my face. You (the police) answer to ME....not the other way around.
Exactly. If they were in the same situation they'd do the same exact thing.
I wonder how many conservatives on this board supported the Clinton AWB. Or the current state of abortion laws in this country.
Unjust and un-Constitutional laws should never be supported. I wonder how many conservatives would stick to the "sanctity of the law" argument if a law was passed that repealed freedom of speech in this country. I would hope none of them.
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Post by cameron on May 16, 2006 10:36:16 GMT -8
OK Cameron, so you know ONE FAMILY (out of millions) who contribute to this country. That's still irrelevant! No, it is very relevant and I've known hundreds of them due to the nature of the work I've done and where I've lived. You are trying to say that "Conservatives" (real conservatives) only abide the laws we choose to and are free to say "FUCK IT" to the rest. Well, that is completely untrue. I guess you have never heard of civil disobedience. I'm against your idiotic plans because they wont work. Your just going to punish those that should not be punished and continue to reward those that should not be rewarded. Talk to Peck it's about economics. As far as "sounding" more like Americans than Americans do... That is completely untrue as it pertains to Mexicans. I agree their kids (who learned English in school) speak like we do, but many of the parents don't speak English at all! So what? this is what I mean by racism not everyone can learn a new language late in life. Spanish speaking immigrants are learning English just as fast any other group of immigrants have in the past. Oh and when I said they are going to try and out nativist the natives I meant in their zealousness in calling for the deportation of illegals. As far as rounding them up and shipping them out, I don't want to go to that kind of trouble. They came on their own and they can leave on their own when ALL OPPORTUNITY TO BENEFIT from their illegal activity dries up. Not going to happen, and even if it did, it would not work. Talk to anyone who thinks rationally on the topic. So I was born here, so what? You seem to think that makes me lucky. I say "BULLSHIT!" What makes this country great is freedom. If these illegals want a great country, they have the power to band together and create one, or do what it takes to get here legally. That's what my forefathers had to do. IT AIN'T FREE AND IT AIN'T CHEAP! Don't try to play holier than thou with me, you did not chose to be here your forefathers did and should should get down on your knees and thank your God for being so lucky they made that choice for you. Now, as it pertains to people like DStauffer and his step-daughter, I do agree that we need to fix our current system, but that has nothing to do with how to treat the illegals already here. If they want to get here legally and avoid deportation if we happen to find them, they should have to leave and then apply to get back in. To break our law and then demand we turn a blind eye to that really screws people like DStauffer's step-daughter who really do want to play by the rules and get here legally. I am all for assisting people like her become a citizen. I wasn't talking about DStauffer's step-daughter. I was talking about someone I know here on long island. You say you want to stand up to the law when it's unjust... surely you know there is a right and wrong way to do that. Simply ignoring the law and then breaking it makes you a criminal. That's what the illegals are doing. I damn sure WILL question your loyalty if you pull that shit! Climb down of your pedestal you never once addressed my analogy because it is apt and you know it. I guess you would be all for throwing the book at some child who stole a loaf of bread to eat. You want to question my loyalty because I have the temerity to step off your idealogical plantation? Sorry Massa  AND, BTW, if a COP asks you for your ID and you don't think they have the right to do so, you'd damn sure better hand it over or you ass is headed to jail. That's a decision I would love to see a video of. Bullshit, I don't have to show ID that's the law in this country. I don't have to explain myself to the police unless they have reason to believe I'm doing something I should not be, and my rights come from God, not mans law. One last question... Do you look at yourself like that guy with the sword? Whose blood is on the sword? Since you clearly wouldn't draw it against the illegal immigrants INVADING this country, I can only assume it's the blood of people like 101 and myself who would defend this country AGAINST the invasion. Why don't you "splain" that one to me. No I would draw it against our real enemies and not the imaginary ones that are the product of your fevered brain. |
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Post by cameron on May 16, 2006 10:56:49 GMT -8
Bravo Cameron! I know we've had some differences on the Ireland issue but I'm 100% with you on this. Hell yea! That's exactly how I feel. Unless I've done something wrong....get out of my face. You (the police) answer to ME....not the other way around. Exactly. If they were in the same situation they'd do the same exact thing. I wonder how many conservatives on this board supported the Clinton AWB. Or the current state of abortion laws in this country. Unjust and un-Constitutional laws should never be supported. I wonder how many conservatives would stick to the "sanctity of the law" argument if a law was passed that repealed freedom of speech in this country. I would hope none of them. Nothing personal FF but I would rather not have Mario, Bounce, and 101 against me. Thanks for the support  |
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Post by jfree on May 16, 2006 11:27:36 GMT -8
Does the fact that illegals only pay into tax/social security 7bil and cost this nation 36bil not bother either of you? That is yearly debt of 26bil they eat away at our social services, social security and medical aide. What part of that aren't you getting?
These people have alot to make up for and owe us some respect for taking our hard earned money lowering our wages and sapping our public school system and social services. You can say they are a net asset till the cows come home but the cold hard facts is they are a net loss no matter how slice it.
So, at the very least they need to voluntarily leave this country and apply for lawful return thru guest worker programs. However, I agree that anyone here less than two years needs to be shipped back. In order to obtain citizenship they need to be made to jump thru some serious hoops and prove they will be respectful lawful citizens especially after all those protest marches waving the mexican flag in our faces and demanding we bend over and take it. And they need to outlaw Anchor babies, no child born to non-citizens should receive citizenship, at least one parent must be citizen. Thats the way I feel, I won't apologize, and I feel no pity for anyone who breaks the law and flaunts it in our faces then has the gall to make demands. I was watching them stop illegals at the border and I agree w/101, they were all porkers, not a skinny one in the bunch. If any of them weighed less than 150, I'd be surprised.
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Post by cameron on May 16, 2006 11:41:49 GMT -8
Does the fact that illegals only pay into tax/social security 7bil and cost this nation 36bil not bother either of you? That is yearly debt of 26bil they eat away at our social services, social security and medical aide. What part of that aren't you getting? These people have alot to make up for and owe us some respect for taking our hard earned money lowering our wages and sapping our public school system and social services. You can say they are a net asset till the cows come home but the cold hard facts is they are a net loss no matter how slice it. So, at the very least they need to voluntarily leave this country and apply for lawful return thru guest worker programs. However, I agree that anyone here less than two years needs to be shipped back. In order to obtain citizenship they need to be made to jump thru some serious hoops and prove they will be respectful lawful citizens especially after all those protest marches waving the mexican flag in our faces and demanding we bend over and take it. And they need to outlaw Anchor babies, no child born to non-citizens should receive citizenship, at least one parent must be citizen. Thats the way I feel, I won't apologize, and I feel no pity for anyone who breaks the law and flaunts it in our faces then has the gall to make demands. I was watching them stop illegals at the border and I agree w/101, they were all porkers, not a skinny one in the bunch. If any of them weighed less than 150, I'd be surprised. Not going to happen Jfree it's time to wake up and smell the coffee, Bush was telling you something you did not want to hear but it was the truth. |
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Post by FightingFalcon on May 16, 2006 12:09:33 GMT -8
Bush said it plainly - these people are not going to leave voluntarily and America does not have the stomach to round up and deport 11 million people.
Let's stop dealing in the realm of impossibility and instead deal with REALITY.
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Post by bounce on May 16, 2006 12:32:13 GMT -8
Ok Cameron, let's see if I can collate your points:
1) I am just lucky to be here. Since all the poor people across the planet weren't so lucky, they necessarily deserve amnesty for the laws they broke to enter this country, they deserve to stay here and live off my hard-earned tax dollars, burn gas intended for legal citizens, clog our highways (and our schools and our prisons and our hospitals), they deserve to send for their extended families and have them enter this country as well AND they deserve the right to vote for the candidate of their choice.
2) If I desire to resist these criminals, I am no better than Hitler and am certainly a racist! Oh yeah, and I have a "fevered brain."
3) Once in this country, they (and YOU) shouldn't have to abide additional laws if they don't like them (like providing identification and evidence of citizenship). You try to get me to believe THAT violation of our law is nothing but "civil disobedience."
4) The people who break our laws getting here, then continue to break additional laws (it's interesting how you try to twist that into the words "civil disobedience") all the while parasiting off our medical and welfare systems is really nothing more than a poor starving child stealing a loaf of bread trying to keep themselves alive.
5) Plus, you hate the INS!
I'm just going from memory here, but that pretty much covers it from what I recall.
That's your defense?
Sorry dude. That ain't gonna work. We're finally standing up to this bullshit.
If all this is so unfair, if you hate the laws of this country so damn much that you are willing to break them, if you hate the INS so damn much, why the fuck are you even here?
Isn't it interesting how the Left whines about how we're so hated around the world, yet everyone is busting their asses trying to get in here? Even the people who are busting their asses to get IN HERE are saying FUCK YOU to our laws (both before and after they get here).
Here are my points:
1) Start building a double wall right God damned NOW! When you find yourself in a hole, you must FIRST stop digging!
2) If you want IN this country you can either do it legally or face legal action and deportation. Don't like that, don't come!
3) Screw the supposed rights of these criminals. National sovereignty IS OUR LEGAL RIGHT! Moreover, we have the right to do whatever is necessary to secure our borders and are getting closer to doing just that.
4) I have no intention of rounding up millions of illegals. When they appear they will be apprehended and deported. However, my emphasis would be to place HEAVY PRESSURE on the employers who KNOWINGLY hire illegal aliens and the landlords who rent to them.
5) Because the government has been handing out driver's licenses and there are a gazillion counterfeit SS cards out there, it is damn near impossible for an employer to determine the legal status of a prospective employee. So, the card has to be redone and reissued. We cannot put people who hire illegals in jail for it before we make it easy, fast and cheap to make that determination.
6) Once the new tamper proof card is out there, throw anyone who hires an illegal alien in jail for at least six months (first offense) and heavily advertise the arrests (and perp-walks). Anyone caught driving without the new card will necessarily invalidate their driver's license. They will be unable to vote without it as well.
7) Revamp the legal immigration process, but seriously limit the numbers. To get in legally, the prospect must pass a physical to determine that they bring in no exotic diseases. They must pass an interview IN ENGLISH. If they don't have at LEAST a working knowledge of English, they can try again when they do. They must have a verifiable JOB waiting for them. They must submit to fingerprinting and give a sample of DNA. Anyone graduating from college one of our student visas should be given first priority to fast-track citizenship.
8) If you can't provide verifiable proof of your past, you don't get in. That means country of existing citizenship and criminal background at a minimum.
If this is too much trouble, stay the fuck out or standby for the punishment when you're caught!
I have no guilt for being in this country. I spent nine years of my life defending it and I have paid an ungodly amount of money in taxes. I paid my dues.
These illegals don't want to have to even abide the laws. Once here, they want to get on the social service gravy-train. They want the right to vote. AND, if they're anything like you, they don't even want to have to abide the laws AFTER THEY GET HERE. They can break any damn law they want and hide behind the bullshit veil of "civil disobedience."
If you're unwilling to abide our laws, you don't deserve to be here.
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