Let's start here:
FACT: NEVER IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND HAS A PROHIBITION EVER BEEN SUCCESSFUL!
FACT: PROHIBITIONS DON'T WORK!
Been to a slave market lately? How about a pogrom? A lynching?
Bought any DDT? How about a machine gun? Hand grenade? L-Tryptophane?
No to everything but DDT, I use it when I go camping. Did you know that the world wide ban on the use of DDT is estimated to be responsible for the deaths of millions of people in the third world from malaria? Something I picked of from Rush. If I remember correctly the estimated number of deaths was something like 80 million people since the ban went into effect. I feel comfortable saying that the ban on DDT is immoral and wrong, and any one who breaks it is not guilty of a sin.
It's hard to find and you need to know where to go and whom to ask. But you know it never really did dawn on me until just now, that it might actually be illegal for me to use it as a repellent. Works great the blood suckers drop dead as soon as they land. If it isn't at least 30% DDT it ain't no good.
Are you going to report me now?
Prohibitions don't stop things completely because some asshole will always break the law, and some other asshole will always want to help him avoid the consequences of doing so. Your arguments want to reward breaking the law. Do you think THAT will reduce anything?
It's not so clear cut as all that, some business owner is losing customers because the other guy is undercutting him by doing something he likely wont be caught doing. He then has a choice go out of business or match the other guy by doing the same thing. What do you think he is going to do? So he hires an illegal who's just trying to provide food, clothing, and shelter for himself. Should he go out of business and fail himself when it comes to providing for his own family? It's not his fault the illegal guy is here, he didn't let him in. Just how immoral is that in your world? You need to climb on down off that self righteous steed you are riding.
You know my father once told me that Americans as a people tend to reach these peaks of self righteousness that then drive them to go on these witch hunts every few decades. He even gave examples starting with the Salem witch trials. I don't remember what they were now I wish I could.
That's how he explained Watergate to me. He kept explaining it to me over and over but I just couldn't for the life of me understand why Nixon was being so horribly vilified. He didn't even order the break in. My Dad would say yes but he tried to cover it up. I would be like duh of course he did he's a politician and he didn't want to look bad.
You see I could never quit understand what all the hub bub was all about. I mean the Republican headquarters had been broken into the year before, and who doubts that the some Democrat was behind that? Nixon didn't order the break in, he just tried to cover it up. Censure sure that would have made sense to me, but to remove him from office and put him jail? Are they really going to put him jail? I don't understand could you explain that to me again. I must have drove him up the wall asking for him to explain it over and over again, for months probably close to a year.
At one point I began to think I was just never going to be able to fathom American politics. When the old man used the Salem witch trails as an explanation. To be honest it was one of the few times I thought the old man was full of shit. He was just saying that to make me stop asking him to explain it to me, now I'm not so sure.
Here's the truth, EVERY prohbition is successful to some degree. How can I make that statement? Because if it reduces a proscribed activity by even a small per cent, it has "worked" to that extent.
Your absolutist statements are incorrect.
OR maybe you want to repeal the prohibitions on kiddie porn?
After all, if prohibitions don't work...
Why bother with laws at all?
Not so fast Batman. We are talking about prohibitions against widespread common commodities that are spread throughout the entire nations economy.
Let's take drugs for an example shall we. Milton Friedman on the topic:
"The reign of tears is over. The slums will soon be only a memory. We will turn our prisons into factories and our jails into storehouses and comcribs. Men will walk upright now, women will smile, and the children will laugh. Hell will be forever for rent."
That is how Billy Sunday, the noted evangelist and leading crusader against Demon Rum, greeted the onset of Prohibition in early 1920. We know now how tragically his hopes were doomed. New prisons and jails had to be built to house the criminals spawned by converting the drinking of spirits into a crime against the state. Prohibition undermined respect for the law, corrupted the minions of the law, created a decadent moral climate-but did not stop the consumption of alcohol.
Despite this tragic object lesson, we seem bent on repeating precisely the same mistake in the handling of drugs...
...In drugs, as in other areas, persuasion and example are likely to be far more effective than the use of force to shape others in our image.
I really don't think the "war on drugs" have done a damn bit of good in preventing drug use. In fact I think they would lose part of their forbidden fruit appeal to the young if we just recognized the war has been a complete failure that in fact helps to fund our enemies.
If I thought I was wrong about this I would be on your side I just don't think I am and nothing you have said has even come remotely close to giving me cause to rethink my position. I'm not infallible I could be wrong. I seriously doubt it though. I mean just here in Huntington it's not like illegal aliens are hard to find. I trip over a half dozen of them when I walk down to my local 7/11. If the authorities wanted to they could round up several thousand just here in Huntington alone in less than an hour. Of course that would also mean completely shutting down the local economy. I think it would be safe to bet the entire economy of Long Island would be dealt a blow that would require several years to recover from. Hell they would have to convert gulf courses, set up tents, and use them as detention centers on to hold them all. Ya sure thing 101 put one or two restaurant owners in jail the odd landscaper and you think presto compliance will be achieved. That sure seems delusional to me no local authorities are going to willingly commit economic suicide for your idea of what is just and necessary. If this is what you want to do fine. Lets be honest about shall we? This is going to require the Feds to threaten withholding all federal funds unless the locals comply. It's going to be a full scale war between local author ties and federal authorities. If you can't see that then you are blind.
WTF are you talking about with your strawman unemployment argument?
What? I have no idea what you are talking about. I did not make an unemployment argument. I did say I was against unemployment insurance as part of a response to the idiotic claim I'm some bleeding heart Liberal. Is that what you are talking about?
"They are upstanding members of the communities they live in and the nation."
You're joking, right?
No I feel very comfortable saying that about anyone with a child in our military weather they are here illegally or not.
" I guess you failed to notice the appeals to emotions I did happen to make were not negative. Mine were appeals are to compassion, yours are to anger and fear."
Mine's better than yours is, nyaaaah! Grow up, kid. It's not compassionate to reward lawbreakers. It's neither compassionate or patriotic to drive down wages for Americans to benefit non-Americans who crashed the gate.That's not compassion. It's lunacy.
I should grow up? You keep using the term lawbreakers as if the term it's self denotes right and wrong divorced from the activity being discussed. Is wrong to want to do better for yourself. Is it wrong to hire someone who is here already to keep from losing your business? The one who needs to grow up and start facing the world as it is and not how you wish it were is you. The American standard of living gets higher every year. This bogus arguments about wage earner hardship get no where with me. An American wage earner. If you can't convince me you're in sad shape.
"Slap him in irons and ship him to prison for acting in his own economic self interest. "
We do it to bank robbers who are also acting in their own economic self-interest. And I'm not an Ayn Rand fan and never have been.
Bank robbers are thieves, we happen to be discussing people who are entering into consensual agreements. More childish arguments from you. Why do you refuse to recognize the difference between a real criminal and someone who is only trying to survive as best they can? You can call them criminals until the cows come home, it isn't going to make what they are doing, or have done, immoral.
"Well that's mighty white of you."
Gonna get racial on men now? You might as well, you've already called me a Nazi, a rightwing moonbat, a Stalinist and everything else but a child of God, so go ahead. It just reinforces the bankruptcy of your argument.
Hahahaha you know when my black nephew was little, I taught him to say that when saying thank you to those I thought were assholes. He quit saying it as soon as he realized, but for a little while I got a real kick out of the looks on their faces. The cute little black kid said that was mighty white of me. My nephew thought it meant kind. hahahaha
I never called you a NAZI and you know it I apologized for giving the impression I did and explained what I meant. You are just using that to attempt to mis-characterize my arguments.
Moonbat, well I think maybe you are, just haven't figured out your genus yet. The moonbat cry over at the THC is Buuuuusssshhhh Liiiieeeed, Buuuuusssshhhh Liiiieeeed. Yours may be Criminal invaaasiiiooon, Criminal invaaasiiiooon.
What I said was holding a show trial was very Stalinist of you, where do you think the term comes from anyway?
Rest assured we are all children of God, even moonbats.
The bankruptcy of my arguments? See there you go I get that from the moonbats over at the THC all the time when they can't bring themselves to engage me in an honest exchange of ideas. Don't like being called a moonbat stop imitating their traits.
"Damn right I get my undies in a bunch when my loyalty is questioned, just because I honestly disagree with you. Whenever a moonbat pulls that crap on me about "don't question my patriotism" I tell them I'm not questioning their patriotism, just their judgment. Not you, you tell me yep your loyalty is suspect. That I may in fact be disloyal for not taking up your position on this. Sorry, you have no right to measure my loyalty by your politics."
Put down the bong, Cameron. It wasn't me who questioned your loyalty, I'm commenting on your reaction to it. HOWEVER, I will repeat that if youdon't wan't to appear disloyal, STOP TRYING TO GIVE THE COUNTRY AWAY TO THOSE WITH NO RIGHT TO BE HERE.
OK I will put down the bong and you put down your fifth of scotch. No you didn't question my loyalty nor did you defend me from the charge. In fact just like you have right here you give credence to that bullshit by saying it appears so. So I respectfully reply F##K YOU!
I'm not trying to give the country away am trying to keep it from being over run by anger mindless lynch mobs like the kind your trying to drum up. That aren't even going to accomplish the your own goals.
"Morality is the measure of the Law. The Law is not the measure of Morality. "
We're a nation of laws not a nation of moralities.
No we are a nation based on the enduring principles of human dignity freedom and justice. The shinning city upon the hill, an example for all the nations of the earth.
There's a damned good reason for that. See if you can figure out what it might be.
Here's the cost of amnesty. Are YOU willing to pay it? I'm sure as hell not.
www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/bg1936.cfmBleeding heart is as bleeding heart does.
You know what I may stick around I don't know I just lost interest in finishing my reply to you. I appear to be disloyal because I disagree with you on how to achieve a shared goal. Wow is there really anything else to say after that. I don't think I want to be here any more. Your not really conservatives your narrow minded moonbats from the other side of the spectrum, I just couldn't see it. Your lack of actual engagement with my ideas and the quick call to question my loyalty to the nation. That really is a moonbat tactic. you know the one Bush is evil he's trampling the Constitution and thats OK with the mindless Bushbot bullshit. Ya gonna mull this one over you may not hear from me again for awhile, but I promise to come back and before leaving for good if that's what I decide.
OMG just checked the THC and the lefty moonbats seem to be in full flight and I've gone and lost my refuge. thanks shish
