What if you aren't sorry?

[jfree]

James, have you never heard of "Protestant work ethic"? This country was founded on it, and this country succeeded because of it. It is a big mistake to believe Christianity excludes the world in it's society, work ethics, and purpose. Honor is something to be proud of not ashamed, an honorable man would live for another, once you have kids of your own you will definately understand this. I have worked as a Bookkeeper, Business Manager, Probation Counselor, at a Womans Shelter and as a Voc Rehap counselor, which jobs do you think made me feel good when I got home, like I had helped someone, and which ones do you think sent me home stressed out and kranky? For all the horrible things I heard and saw and felt working in Counseling positions, I always came home and felt good about myself, I saw things and heard things that made me hate people, but still I felt good at the end of the day. Now as a bookkeeper and Business Manager I just came home drained, tired, stressed and Kranky, I felt no real satisfaction in saving the company money, in pressuring the Ad dept. to earn more revenue.

If a man will not work, neither shall he eat. But I geuss that is somehow promoting laziness? Laziness and dependence on the state is promoted and celebrated by many an "intellectual" especially persons like Rand who lean toward Socialism, which more often than not seeks to destroy all religions. Buddism is actually a very peaceful religion that promotes intellectualism, it does not center around a God, but Kharma, and there are sooooo many parables. If you did so well in history I am shocked to find you know nothing of this.

Rands condescending rant about the laziness and statism promoted by Religion is so far off base that it actually describes herself and all the other atheist socialist intellectuals out there.

[FightingFalcon]

I was going to respond until you called Rand a Socialist. Please read her works - she is the furthest thing from a Socialist. In fact, right now I'm in the middle of reading "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal" by Rand, in which she argues that the world has never truly seen Capitalism in its purest form. Rather, its been a mix of Capitalism and Socialism, which she absolutely hates.

I have no idea where you heard/read that Rand was a Socialist but that is COMPLETELY wrong. Seriously I can't even imagine where you heard that.

[jfree]

I heard it on TV a while back, but perhaps whoever said it was misinformed.

Still I don't think she gets Christianity, Republicanisms strongest supporters are Christians and Capitalists, so any conviction of hers that Christianity in anyway promotes dependance on the state or laziness is sorely mistaken, the largest supporters of non-state charities are of course Christian organizations.

Come on James, I was in your place not so long ago where I couldn't get past my own desires and wants to see the good in being altruistic or in Christianity. Rules were the last thing on my mind when I was your age, only the pursuit of happiness and instant gratification were on my agenda. Pass the bong, where's my beer and who is that hot guy over there were all I cared about, but seriously once you are a parent, the change is amazing.

What is wrong w/honoring others before yourself, being selfless is by far the best of all man's attributes, you can't hate someone who would put themselves in front of you if you were in danger, or your parents to put your need for a college education or even a car before their own desire to escape on vacation, or your best friend who cancels a date to hang w/you if you need them, what is wrong w/that? IF we all lived only for our own gratification there would be no charity, no relief for the poor, starving or enslaved.

Forget the dogma's and cannons added by others, the Inquisition committed by tyrannical men wasn't God or Christianities fault, but the perversion of evil men. What Christianities base message is is we are responsible for our own actions, we need to be charitible, selfless, humble and loving, we need to not be greedy or hateful or boastful, each of these sins has consequences in this world and the next, adulterous intimacy spreads disease and even kills, boastfulness will gain you no friends, greed will lose you friends, drunkness will destroy your life and if you are a drunk parent it will destroy your childs as well, it isn't just the fear of hell that brings us into line as christians, but love for others and not just ourselves.

[FightingFalcon]

I heard it on TV a while back, but perhaps whoever said it was misinformed.

This is just me but typically I don't comment on a literary work unless I've read it. I don't let others do my thinking for me.

so any conviction of hers that Christianity in anyway promotes dependance on the state or laziness is sorely mistaken, the largest supporters of non-state charities are of course Christian organizations.

You are mixing two arguments. The first being that religion teaches you to subjugate yourself to God while liberals/humanists advocate subjugating yourself to "society", "the common good", "your fellow man" etc. I prefer having no masters.

I never said that Christianity preaches you to be lazy - it does, however, preach that the rich and powerful will be sent to Hell while the meek inherit the world. Am I wrong? If Christ was so intelligent, surely he could understand what would happen to the world if everyone gave up their money to their fellow man. Eventually everyone would die of starvation because no one would live for themselves. With no one to loot, everyone would become equal and die. Like I said, Christ's vision of mankind (and the Christian idea of Heaven) will resemble something along the lines of the Soviet Union.

see the good in being altruistic or in Christianity

I see nothing but evil in both of them. That goes for all religion - not just Christianity.

Pass the bong, where's my beer and who is that hot guy over there were all I cared about, but seriously once you are a parent, the change is amazing.

Once again you don't understand my philosophy. Do you see the quote in my tagline? Like Rand, I've always believed that human production is the greatest virtue. I abhor laziness of any kind and I certainly don't believe in self-gratification. The purpose of life, as I see it, is to be as productive as you possibly can. The only question is, For whom? For YOU. For no one else. I don't do it for the money - I do it to prove to myself what I am capable of. I do not care if my neighbor starves to death.

What is wrong w/honoring others before yourself, being selfless is by far the best of all man's attributes,

That statement is profoundly evil. It is at the core of everything that liberals believe in and I am committed to fighting against such mindsets with all my ability. Being selfless (e.g. living for others) is the most EVIL idea that religion has given us.

But what you are talking about is not selflessness. It's not sacrifice. Breaking a date to help out your best friend is not a sacrifice. You can always make up the date but if your best friend needs help right away, you can't make it up. You value your best friend's life above your date with your girl friend. Therefore no sacrifice is made. You are simply serving your selfish values.

Your parents paying for your college instead of going on vacation is not a sacrifice. They value your well-being and want to see you succeed in life. Therefore they are honoring their values by making sure that you have a good education.

What IS a sacrifice is if a family couldn't send their bright children to school because they had to pay taxes so that poor mentally retarded children could go to special schools. That is a sacrifice and its evil.

What Christianities base message is is we are responsible for our own actions, we need to be charitible, selfless, humble and loving, we need to not be greedy or hateful or boastful, each of these sins has consequences in this world and the next, adulterous intimacy spreads disease and even kills, boastfulness will gain you no friends, greed will lose you friends, drunkness will destroy your life and if you are a drunk parent it will destroy your childs as well, it isn't just the fear of hell that brings us into line as christians, but love for others and not just ourselves.

I agree with you on some and not on others. I believe in Love (although not like you do), friendship, family (although not like you do) and that drugs will destroy your life. I do not believe that greed is evil, in being humble (was Edison? Or Einstein? Or the Wright brothers?) and that sins have consequences in the afterlife. I do not care about boasting because my actions stand for themselves. Like I said before, I live for myself and I care only what I think about my actions. Why would I care to boast about myself to others? Ultimately I really don't care what they think or believe.

I can't express enough how much I hate the Christian idea of loving all of mankind. How (honestly, how?) can you use the same word that you use to describe your relationship with your life partner to a random bum on the street? The truth is that you DON'T love that person. And if you do - then you have a seriously twisted view of what Love should be and is.

And again, you are confusing what a sacrifice is. Spending money on people that you love isn't a sacrifice. Not being able to buy new clothes for your children because you have to pay for poor children in a third world country IS a sacrifice and it IS evil. There is no sacrifice when you serve a higher value over a lower value.

[jfree]

No James, you did say that Christianity promoted Laziness, it also promotes Charity and Hard work, like I said, the bible says if a man will not work neither shall he eat, it says we should be selfless, it doesn't say we should give away all our money so we have none.

A parent who gives up a vacation from fighting teenagers to provide a car or college education for their teenagers is most certainly sacrificing their own need for their childs, especially when they could have escaped from their teenagers for awhile in paradise.

A friend who gives up a date is also sacrificing self, you seem to have a real strange idea of what selfishness is and what sacrifice is. Giving anything up that you want, deserve or need to aide or be there for someone else is a sacrifice.

I don't know what on earth they taught you in your church, but buying food, clothing and shelter for your kids is NOT selfish, nor is spending some on entertainment for them, now if you are spending 40thousand for a brand new car for a 16yo then yeah that is spoiling them and a waste of money, they will dent it in a month.

you specifically stated that Rand and yourself believe Christianity spreads statism and laziness, in those exact words, both of which are patently false.

Christianity does not promote Communism, Communism is in direct opposition to Christianity, ask the Russian Orthodox about it, what's left of them, when Communism fell their churches were full again and expanding again, when communism began, they slaughter thousands and thousands of Orthodox Leity and Clergy for fear of the impediment Christianity would provide in the take over of the Soviet Union State.

I don't remember Jesus ever saying you cant love your husband more than your neighbor, that is just silly, who on earth told you that?

I think you are really looking for a out for latent guilt, you hate Christianity because it represents feeling of guilt for you, but remember not all churches are the RCC, and you can't blame all Christians for the RCC, many do not believe in having anyone excommunicated as that would mean we would have to place judgement on someone, which is strictly forbidden, but often ignored by many churches. We are all of us responsible for our own actions, and only the truly selfish look out and care for only themselves which seems to be what Rand promotes. So she promotes productivity eh? You do realize that was a communist party mantra in the USSR right?

Selflessness is as far from evil as you can get, greed is the root of all evil. But from what you are saying, at least it appears that you would look at a Marvel comic and find Spiderman, Superman, whomever as the bad guy? Is Lex Luther her hero? I am really confused by what you are saying....

[AmericanPride]

James --

Rand's philosophy is not one based on realistic assessments on the nature of mankind and only exists to the extent that persons are able to conceive it. It certainly has no applicable tenants, warping the base ideals of classical liberalism and capitalism by stretching them beyond their philosophical use.

in which she argues that the world has never truly seen Capitalism in its purest form.

It hasn't -- and for good reasons. Political leaders as early as Alexander Hamiliton realized the limits and problems of an unrestricted, unguided "free" market. Capitalism exists within the context of political discourse and is founded upon a fundamental condition of political life: property. Capitalism itself already assumes the existence of an active state by acting upon the concept of equality before the law. The state, thus, precedes capitalism and exercises precedence over it.

[FightingFalcon]

No James, you did say that Christianity promoted Laziness, it also promotes Charity and Hard work, like I said, the bible says if a man will not work neither shall he eat, it says we should be selfless, it doesn't say we should give away all our money so we have none.

So it doesn't say that the poor woman who gives up all her material possessions is more holy than the wealthy man who only gives up a portion of his wealth? Remember that you are dealing with an ex-Christian here. I used to be on your side of the argument until I realized just how evil it is.

A parent who gives up a vacation from fighting teenagers to provide a car or college education for their teenagers is most certainly sacrificing their own need for their childs, especially when they could have escaped from their teenagers for awhile in paradise.

You would have to talk to the parent. If they are serving a higher value (e.g. their child's education) over a lower value (e.g. taking a vacation), than no sacrifice is made. No sacrifice is possible when you serve a higher value over a lower one.

Giving anything up that you want, deserve or need to aide or be there for someone else is a sacrifice.

Let's say I had plans to hang out with my friends but at the same time my best friend is going through severe depression. My best friend needs me help or he will kill himself. Am I making a sacrifice by canceling my plans with my other friends to save the life of my best friend? No, I am simply serving my selfish interests and values. The life of my best friend is more valuable to me than one night of hanging out with my friends.

now if you are spending 40thousand for a brand new car for a 16yo then yeah that is spoiling them and a waste of money, they will dent it in a month.

Certainly this is better than spending money on people that you will never meet or care about.

you specifically stated that Rand and yourself believe Christianity spreads statism and laziness, in those exact words, both of which are patently false.

Christianity preaches that unless you live for others, you are worthless. That unless you sacrifice for others, you will amount to nothing in this world or the next. I want no part of that philosophy.

Christianity does not promote Communism, Communism is in direct opposition to Christianity, ask the Russian Orthodox about it, what's left of them, when Communism fell their churches were full again and expanding again, when communism began, they slaughter thousands and thousands of Orthodox Leity and Clergy for fear of the impediment Christianity would provide in the take over of the Soviet Union State.

Christianity and Communism preach the same thing but with different masters. With Christianity, you are supposed to serve God while asking no questions of his plan or knowledge. With Communism, you are supposed to serve Society while asking no questions about the knowledge of its planners. Both are evil and I serve neither of them.

I don't remember Jesus ever saying you cant love your husband more than your neighbor, that is just silly, who on earth told you that?

Christianity preaches that you are to love everyone. Perhaps not equally but that you are supposed to love everyone as your fellow man. I don't. I have no feelings towards random people on the streets of Baghdad. I don't believe in unconditional love or love for any reason.

So she promotes productivity eh? You do realize that was a communist party mantra in the USSR right?

Again, Communism is the opposite of productivity. Communism preached that you live for the State and your fellow Communists. I preach that you live for yourself and yourself only. Ms. Rand was born in St. Petersburg and saw first-hand the evils of Communism. This is why she is so violently anti-Communist and pro-Capitalist.

greed is the root of all evil.

And this again represents the evil passed onto humanity by religion. Greed is not the root of evil. Without greed we wouldn't have America or Capitalism. The belief that you are entitled to something that you have not earned is evil. That is the root of ALL evil. Not greed - for greed includes that to which you are entitled to and have worked hard to earn. But rather, the belief that you are entitled to something (e.g. the rich should give you money to help you out) is the root of all evil.

Is Lex Luther her hero? I am really confused by what you are saying....

Anyone who lives for others and rejects their selfish values is evil. At the same time, anyone who acquires money through force or fraud is evil. I don't understand what is so hard to understand about this philosophy.

The state, thus, precedes capitalism and exercises precedence over it.

Chris, one of these days you will learn that the State is infinitely less powerful (and significant) than Capitalism.