What if you aren't sorry?

[FightingFalcon]

This is a question/problem that I've been dealing with for about 3-4 years now and it's causing me to move further and further away from religion. I started out being an extremely religious person to now, believing in God but more along the lines of Deism - that He created the universe but has very little power in it anymore. I believe that He might enable people to succeed but ultimately it is the individual him/herself who triumphs.

But anyway....that's a discussion for another time. This post concerns sinning and not feeling guilty about it. For example....drinking. I've had some really good memories of drinking with my friends that I am flat-out not sorry for. Even though getting drunk is a sin and I should ask for forgiveness, I don't want forgiveness. I enjoyed it and I don't think anything is wrong with it.

I feel bad that my sins were the reason that Jesus died but I can't bring myself to ask for forgiveness. I would be lying and God knows it. So even though there are other sins out there that I would like forgiveness for, I can't because there is at least one that I don't feel sorry for.

Surely there are sins out there that ya'll enjoy participating in and don't feel sorry for. I mean what's to feel sorry for about having a good time with your friends and enjoying life? Honestly?

I dunno...I still believe in God/Jesus and all that good stuff but I can't bring myself to ask God to forgive me for something I don't want to be forgiven for. I'm not looking for a justification of my lifestyle, just seeing if ya'll have any input. Or maybe I'm the only one out there who genuinely does not feel sorry about certain sins.

[jfree]

Asking for forgiveness is not an out for guilty feelings, it is about knowing what you did was wrong and asking to be forgiven for sinning, what your feelings are is irrelevant, knowing what is right and what is wrong is relevant and then truly showing piety thru not doing them anymore.

What is wrong w/drinking and the like is that you behave in out of control ways while intoxicated and you are damaging your body period, liking to be drunk is something many of us feel because of the chemical reaction in the brain that can produce euphoric states, of course your going to like it, but that doesn't make it okay.

You are not the only one who does things that are sinful and then feels no remorse, it happens to us all.

There is nothing in the bible that demands guilty feelings for sinning, it asks for humility and piety and faithfulness, nothing more.

[FightingFalcon]

OK I see what you're saying and it makes sense. Drinking is wrong in that's harmful to the body but I don't feel guilty about it. I guess I can buy that but the way I was brought up as a Catholic, we were always made to feel guilty for our sins. They weren't just wrong because they were harmful to our body, but also because we disappointed God and caused the death of His Son. Guilt is a pretty integral emotion in the Catholic faith, hence why we keep Jesus on the cross.

I'd say that 95% of the sins that I commit I feel bad for doing because most of them are evil, e.g. lying, anger, hatred, etc. But because of a few that I enjoy, I can't bring myself to pray anymore. I'd feel like a hypocrite and a liar.

I'll think about what you said tho and I'm also going to start looking into Protestant theology. I love the Catholic faith and all but the crushing guilt that they put on us....not sure if I can deal with it anymore.

[101ABN]

"I'm not looking for a justification of my lifestyle"

I hope not. You've already done that in your own mind, which is why you are experiencing this spiritual dissonance now.

"I feel bad that my sins were the reason that Jesus died"

Get over yourself. He would have died anyway. There are plenty more of us out here who need it.

Look, Jesus' blood is already spilt. So YOU get to choose whether or not to accept the redemption. Just like you make the choice between the pleasures of the flesh and matters of the spirit.

And it's really pretty simple.

No repentance, no atonement = no forgiveness. That's just the way it works.

So now you want to take your soul on journey through other religions that will let you sin the way you want to in search of the answer to the age-old question, "How much sin can I get away with and still get into heaven?"

Hey! Been there, done that.

Here's a phrase I'd like you to remember, FF.

Self-will run riot.

Meditate on it and see if you can define it in terms of the past year of your life. Pray for the wisdom to see, the courage to act, and the faith to accept.

In any case, remember it.

That way you'll recognize it when you hear it again.

It may serve you on your journey.

[FightingFalcon]

You're right 101 - I guess I was just afraid/ashamed of admitting it before. I'm not looking for help so much as I am looking for a religion that will allow me to get away with what as much as I can and not repent for it. I'll admit that I enjoy sinful pleasures and that I'd rather be in a religion that allows me to enjoy these than not.

But are you honestly telling me that you can, without hesitation, reject all temptation and still lead a perfectly happy lifestyle? It seems to me that you have to pick one or the other - happiness or piety. I try to straddle a middle ground and it doesn't work.

Perhaps when you're older (no offense), it's easier to reject temptation. But I'm in the prime of my life. If I can't enjoy my life now, when can I?

I understand all of the arguments - that temptation is evil and true happiness comes from serving your Father in Heaven. But that doesn't work for me, especially in the culture of a major East Coast city where sinful lifestyles are almost expected of you.

On my day of Judgment, I will tell God that I wanted to enjoy His gifts and to ask for mercy. I hope He understands and appreciates the impossible situation that we are in. If not, so be it.

edit: Let me just make it clear what I mean by a sinful lifestyle. What I'm talking about is the ability to hang out with my friends, drink and not feel guilty for it. I'm not talking about like stealing, cheating, murdering, etc.

Can I be happy without drinking and hanging out with my friends? Not right now, no. Not when the social life of a college student revolves around such stuff.

[101ABN]

"Can I be happy without drinking and hanging out with my friends? Not right now, no. Not when the social life of a college student revolves around such stuff. "

Then these things are God, to you.

[FightingFalcon]

So God really wants me to be unhappy? That's His purpose in life for me?

Surely that can't be it.

[dustdevil28]

fightingfalcon said:

You're right 101 - I guess I was just afraid/ashamed of admitting it before. I'm not looking for help so much as I am looking for a religion that will allow me to get away with what as much as I can and not repent for it. I'll admit that I enjoy sinful pleasures and that I'd rather be in a religion that allows me to enjoy these than not.

But are you honestly telling me that you can, without hesitation, reject all temptation and still lead a perfectly happy lifestyle? It seems to me that you have to pick one or the other - happiness or piety. I try to straddle a middle ground and it doesn't work.

Perhaps when you're older (no offense), it's easier to reject temptation. But I'm in the prime of my life. If I can't enjoy my life now, when can I?

I understand all of the arguments - that temptation is evil and true happiness comes from serving your Father in Heaven. But that doesn't work for me, especially in the culture of a major East Coast city where sinful lifestyles are almost expected of you.

On my day of Judgment, I will tell God that I wanted to enjoy His gifts and to ask for mercy. I hope He understands and appreciates the impossible situation that we are in. If not, so be it.

edit: Let me just make it clear what I mean by a sinful lifestyle. What I'm talking about is the ability to hang out with my friends, drink and not feel guilty for it. I'm not talking about like stealing, cheating, murdering, etc.

Can I be happy without drinking and hanging out with my friends? Not right now, no. Not when the social life of a college student revolves around such stuff.

I guess I'm kinda caught in the middle here as well James.

I haven't been drunk in a long time, but I still drink on a regular basis. To me it's something that levels me off and allows me to relax at the end of a day.

I also have never been religious at all. When my family raised me I just didn't care about church at all no matter how many times they took me there. I find myself attending church a little more on a regular basis now though. To me, a constant routine of going our and drinking with friends just doesn't have much point to it anymore. I guess I'm just moving past that part in my life.

The same may happen to you sometime in the future.

[FightingFalcon]

Exactly Zach....you reach a point in your life where you outgrow this stuff.

But I'm 21 years old and in a major East Coast city. Your entire social life revolves around where the cheapest alcohol is. I actually gave up drinking once I got my bike cause I didn't have the money but now that my bike is broken (altho I should get it back in a week), I've gone back to it.

It's easier the older you get in life to reject more temptation because you've moved beyond that stage in your life. But I feel like it's nearly impossible for a person in my situation to do that and still lead a happy life. Once I get my bike back I'll happily give up drinking again but another sin will just replace it. I guess spending all my money on a motorcycle instead of giving to the poor is another sin. But I mean come on now....what is the point of life if we're all supposed to be miserable and poor?

I still do a ton of volunteer/charity work but I can't do that all day long. The Bible says that true happiness comes from serving God and altho I do get happiness from volunteering, I need more than that in my life. I can't spend all day every day at a soup kitchen or cleaning up parks.

[101ABN]

fightingfalcon said:

So God really wants me to be unhappy? That's His purpose in life for me?

Surely that can't be it.

Is it God's will for you, then, to be a drunken sot or a moral reprobate?

"Your entire social life revolves around where the cheapest alcohol is."

This is the life you are choosing. There is no gun at your head.

Your unhappiness is rooted in your desire to be in two places at once.

Buddhism: Second noble truth. "The origin of suffering is craving (or tanha)."

Christianity: "Ye cannot serve God and mammon." [Luke 16:13]

Remember that phrase, "self-will run riot."

[FightingFalcon]

Let me put my argument a different way. I am not coming across very clear and we're losing sight of what I'm trying to say.

The fact is, none of us are perfect and we are all sinners. 101 - you have an expensive motorcycle that is a luxury item. You've gone on vacations to fulfill selfish pleasures (e.g. enjoying yourself). Surely you've walked past a homeless person and not given them the jacket/shirt off your back. Yet these are all sins. Jesus commands us to not only deny all material pleasures but also to give up everything we have to others. Blessed is the woman who gives up what little she has - not the man who donates huge sums of money that only represent 1% of his total wealth.

See what I'm saying 101? None of us have dedicated ourselves 100% to the teachings of the Lord. If we did, none of us would have a computer. A computer is another worthless luxury item that detracts from your worship of the Lord. The fact is that very few human beings have ever dedicated themselves completely to God. The rest of us spend huge sums of money on luxury items - whether it be drinking, motorcycles, vacations, computers, new clothes, etc. Therefore we are all sinners and fall before the expectations of God.

You will concede this point, will you not 101? That you have spent money on luxury items that could have fed starving children? That you aren't 100% dedicated to the teachings of the Lord?

With that being said...how do you then turn around and ask God to help you? Why should He? Why should He forgive you when you aren't doing everything in your ability to serve Him? That is my real question and what has been bothering me for years now. I find myself at a loss of words when I pray. I can't say "I am sorry" or "Help me reject sin" or "Help me help others" because that isn't what I want. If it was, I wouldn't be spending money on luxury items.

How do you reconcile this? How do you ask God to help you when you aren't totally and 100% dedicated to Him?

The things that we spend money on (whether it be drinking or motorcycles or whatever) is inconsequential - the important thing is that we spend money on luxury items while our fellow human beings starve. The point I'm trying to make is that none of us have lived up to what God commands us. So then what do you say? Do you say "I'm sorry Lord but I've tried..." when indeed you haven't tried?

This is not a personal attack against you 101. I just used your motorcycle as an example of a luxury item. I could have picked any person and any object. Because it's true of all of us. I'd just really like some input on how ya'll reconcile these facts and what you ask of God.

[101ABN]

"Let me put my argument a different way. I am not coming across very clear and we're losing sight of what I'm trying to say. "

I'm not arguing this, nor debating it.

Take what I've given you. Or not.

There is more than one way to feed the hungry.

[FightingFalcon]

*Sigh*

I forgot that I'm the only sinner around here. Apparently I'm the only one with this problem...

[101ABN]

The only sinner?.

Or the unrepentant one?

[FightingFalcon]

admin said:

The only sinner?.

Or the unrepentant one?

That's my point 101. That's what I tried to point out with my most recent post. Do you spend money on selfish pleasures? Do you then turn around and ask God to forgive you even though you KNOW that in the future you will spend more money on selfish pleasures?

I can't do that. I can't ask for forgiveness when I know that somewhere down the line I will spend money selfishly.

I just can't bring myself to lie to God like that. We both know that at some point, I will act selfishly in the future. That I will once again fall short of His expectations. So why should I lie to Him? How can I say "I've done everything I can" when I know I haven't?

How can you call me an unrepentant sinner when you yourself are enjoying selfish pleasures right now? Maybe I'm just the only person who thinks this way. But I just find it the height of hypocrisy to pray to God for help and then go turn on my $2,000 computer. Or hop on my $10,000 motorcycle. Or put on my $50 jeans.