Luther was a piece of work.

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Martin Luther was really an unusual person. He was a Catholic priest that decided he knew Christianity better than the people that brought Christianity to the rest of the world.

It wasn't even so much the 95 points nailed to the Church door. It was how he went dead against the Church on doctrine that he had no credentials for changing. These were his inventions. Doctrine was explained to him with the reasons for the doctrine. He refused to accept the doctrines.

1) Luther argued that there is a requirement of faith to receive the sacraments. In other words no longer do the sacraments depend chiefly on the action of Christ, but rather they depend for their effectiveness as much on the faith of the one receiving them as on Christ.
The Catholic position is that the sacraments give grace as long as the penitent does not obstruct it from taking place. Luther created a new condition for the validity of the sacraments.

2) One other point of contention was on the question of the treasury of merit. The Catholic Church holds that the treasury of merit that Christ and the saints hold is the same as the treasury of merit that the Church legitimately dispenses. Luther contended that the treasury of the Church is not the same as the merits of Christ and the saints. If Luther believed as the Church does there would be no way for him to deny the Church's practice of granting indulgences and allowing them to be gained for the souls in purgatory.
Luther was reminded that it was a Papal decree which in effect said that the treasury of Christ and the saints are entrusted to the Church. Luther became angry at this and said that the Pope is not above scripture and that scripture authorized Luther's interpretation.
This last statement, of course, led to the condition by Luther that everyone interprets scripture as they see fit. (Of course, no one was to disagree with Luther.)

Later,
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[jfree]

What many a Catholic fails to recognize is that luther is a hero only to Lutherans, for the rest of us, he was just stating the obvious. You can try and defame him all you want, it will do no good to those who know that his complaints were just.

[tits]

Thanks for the challenge.

[tits]

Here is a catholic source of Church History with a few of the more vital "break away" heritics. "ET Cum Spiritu Tuo"

1054 Split between Eastern and Western churches formalized, Orthodox Church
Founded

1380-1517 Period between the 1st complete English translation of the Bible and Martin
Luther's 95 Theses

1380-1382 John Wycliffe, eminent theologian at Oxford, makes NT (1380) and OT (with
help of Nicholas of Hereford) (1382) translations in English, 1st complete
translation to English, included deutercanonical books, preached against
abuses, expressed unorthodox views of the sacraments (Penance and
Eucharist), the use of relics, and against celibacy of the clergy

1384 John Purvey, follower of John Wycliffe, revises Wycliffe's translation

1408 Council of Oxford forbids translations of the Scriptures into the vernacular
unless and until they were fully approved by Church authority, sparked by
Wycliffite Bible, Sir Thomas More said: "It neither forbiddith the translations
to be read that were already well done of old before Wycliffe's days, nor
damneth his because it was new but because it was naught; nor prohibiteth
new to be made but provideth that they shall not be read if they be made
amiss till they be by good examination amended." ("A Dialogue against
Heresies")

1415 Council of Florence condemns all of Wycliffe's works, but the actual Bibles
continued to be used after having the heretical prologue removed, and were
possessed by both religious houses and those of the nobility and tacitly
accepted by Catholics

1483-1546 Martin Luther, leader of Protestant reformation, preached that only faith
leads to salvation without mediation of clergy or good works, attacked
authority of the Pope, rejected priestly celibacy, recommended individual
study of the Bible (see 1517, 1522)

1488-1569 Miles Coverdale, Augustinian friar who left the Order, repudiated
Catholicism, 1st Protestant Bishop of Exeter

1505-1572 John Knox, Protestant reformer in Scotland (see 1560)

1509-1564 John Calvin, preached predetermination, good conduct and success were signs of election

1517-1994 Modern Era of Christianity - Luther, Calvin lay the seeds of modern
Protestantism, England breaks away from the Catholic Church

1520 Luther excommunicated

1524 South German peasant uprising, repressed with Luther's support, begins 1.5
century long religious wars

1525-1534 Tyndale's translation of the NT from Greek text of Erasmus (1466) compared
against the Vulgate and the Pentateuch from the Hebrew (1525) compared to
Vulgate and Luther's German version (1530), first printed edition, used as a
vehicle by Tyndale for bitter attacks on the Church, reflects influence of
Luther's NT of 1522 in rejecting "priest" for "elder", "church" for
"congregation"

1534 Henry VIII breaks England away from the Catholic church, confiscates
monastic property, beginning of Episcopal Church

1534 Jesuit order founded by Lyola (1491-1556), helped reconvert large areas of
Poland, Hungary, and S. Germany and sent missionaries to the New World,
India, and China

1535-1537 Coverdale's Bible (see 1488), used Tyndale's (1525) translation along with
Latin and German versions, included Apocrypha at the end of the OT (like
Luther) as was done in later English versions, 1537 edition received royal
license, but banned in 1546

1536 Tyndale put to death, left his OT translation in manuscript, English
ecclesiaastical authorities ordered his Bible burned because it was thought to
be part of Lutheran reform

1537-1551 Matthew Bible, by John Rogers (1500-1555), based on Tyndale and
Coverdale received royal license but not authorized for use in public worship,
numerous editions, 1551 edition contained offensive notes (based on Tyndale)

1536-1541 Michelangelo paints the Last Judgement

1539-1552 Richard Taverner's (1505-1577) revisions of Matthew Bible, mostly NT
revisions since he didn't know Hebrew, 1st edition most reliable

1539-1569 Great Bible, by Thomas Cromwell, 1st English Bible to be authorized for
public use in English churches, defective in many places, based on last
Tyndale's NT of 1534-1535, corrected by a Latin version of the Hebrew OT,
Latin Bible of Erasmus, and Complutensian Polyglot, last edition 1569, never
denounced by England

1542 Conocation makes an unsuccessful attempt to correct the Great Bible against
the Vulgate

1545-1563 Council of Trent, Catholic Reformation, or counter-reformation, met
Protestant challenge, clearly defining an official theology

1609 Baptist Church founded by John Smyth, due to objections to infant baptism
and demands for church-state separation

1611-1800 King James (Authorized) Version, based on Bishop's Bible of 1572 with use of Rheims NT of 1582 - included Apocropha, alterations found in many editions
through 1800, revisers accused of being "damnable corrupters of God's
word"

1644 Long Parliament directed that only Hebrew canon only be read in the Church
of England (effectively removed the Apocropha)

1738 Methodist Church founded by Rev John Wesley

1801-1877 Brigham Young, Mormon leader, colonized Utah

1827 Mormon Church founded by Joseph Smith as a result of reported visions of
the Angel Moroni

1832 Church of Christ (Disciples) organized, made up of Presbyterians in distress
over Protestant factionalism and decline of fervor

1852-1922 Charles Taze Russell, founded the Jehova's Witnesses movement in the 1870s

1901 Pentecostal Church formed in Topeka, Kansas in reaction to loss of
evangelical fervor among Methodists and other denominations

1957 United Church of Christ founded by ecumenical union of Congregationalists and
Evangelical & Reformed, representing Calvinists and Lutherans

www.cwo.com/~pentrack/catholic/index.html

[tits]

from 1330 to 1780 who spoke against the Pope and not the church. Each is credited with the founding of new denominations, but each preached against it.

Please review the 2003 film "Luther". www.hollywoodjesus.com/luther.htm

It is a great depiction of what we now believe Luther was like. The book and the film were based on research and not statements of faith.

[jfree]

You forgot one Tittus, the Copts seperated from the RCC in 451. They do not have a Pope in the same sense as the RCC pope, and don't believe in infallibility.

[MARIO]

Luther is a very intriguing guy to study.

As some of you know, I attend a Lutheran church.

Though I have to say that I don't take the denominations all that seriously. If you're a Christian, you're a Christian. Plain and simple.

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Tittus et al,
It's interesting to note that all of the early Protestant reformers need "authority" to get by with what they needed. Everyone of them had no choice but to go to the civil authority to back up their claims. The civil authorities were more than happy to back up 'their' reformers. This not only allowed them to act without the approval of Rome but it also permitted them to take over lands and property belonging to the Church. At first, the civil authorities made out like bandits. However, over a period of time warfare with the Holy Roman Emperor cost them a great deal. If you would look at the civil authorities that we have today, it wouldn't be too far of a jump to picture Dennis Kucinich as head of a Christian Church.

Tittus, thank you for the history. I'll copy it and use it as a reference.

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jfree said:

What many a Catholic fails to recognize is that luther is a hero only to Lutherans, for the rest of us, he was just stating the obvious. You can try and defame him all you want, it will do no good to those who know that his complaints were just.

Jfree,
Luther may be a hero to the Lutherans and he was also the first of many reformers to come down the line. These later reformers also borrowed heavily from Luther. They didn't do it all on their own. Luther was certainly 'not' stating the obvious. The obvious didn't appear at this time in history. It may be obvious now, but it was not so obvious in Luther's day.

Luther formed three central theological insights which were the foundation stones of his teaching and from which he would never move:
1) The awesomeness and majesty of God
2) The requirement of faith as the means of achieving holiness
3) The superiority of Scripture over the Pope and the Church.

Luther believed that the Church could not grant indulgences which touched the consequences of sin because such indulgences trivialized the effects of sin. If sin and its consecquences were not important, then God, who is offended by sin, could not be important. Luther believed that indulgences diminished the awesomeness of God. Luther wanted a particular act of faith as a requirement for receiving the sacraments. This clearly divurged from Church teaching and represents a non-orthodox understanding of justification by faith.

Exactly who is Luther that he could change Tradition and the teachings of the Church just because "he thinks he's right". Is this the base reason why there are so many Protestant churches because, like Luther, they all just know that they are right?

Later,
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tits said:

Thanks for the challenge.

My pleasure. Should I mount my steed with a sword or a six shooter or both?

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mario said:

Luther is a very intriguing guy to study.

As some of you know, I attend a Lutheran church.

Though I have to say that I don't take the denominations all that seriously. If you're a Christian, you're a Christian. Plain and simple.

Maybe it would be simple if everyone stayed Roman Catholic, but how can 30,000 Protestant religions be 'simple'?

C.

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mario said:

Luther is a very intriguing guy to study.

As some of you know, I attend a Lutheran church.

Though I have to say that I don't take the denominations all that seriously. If you're a Christian, you're a Christian. Plain and simple.

Mario,
In and around 1520 Luther argued:

1) The authority of the Church is not superior to the secular power
2) That the Popes and the bishops are not the only ones who have the right to interpret Scripture authoritatively.
3) The Pope is not the only one who can legitimately call a council.
4) He denies the hierarchical priesthood
5) Everyone is either a deacon, priest, or bishop through baptism.

Luther wanted to deny the priesthood in order to deprive Rome of any authority. He replaced the authority of Rome in the Church with secular powers. He wanted the secular powers to save the Church from its misguided priests, bishops, and the Pope.

6) He wanted to end celibacy for priests.
7) He wanted to end the numerous feastdays.
8) Luther denied the existence of the Sacrament of Confirmation, Matrimony, Holy Orders, and the Anointing of the Sick. Luther did not find these Sacraments in the Bible therefore he said they didn't exist.
9) Luther rejected the deutero-canonical books from the Old Testament, which the Church had always used, in favor of the Hebrew Old Testament. Luther also had 'problems' with James and the Apocalypse (Revelation).

A paradox occurs here. For Luther Scripture was authoritative, so how could he decide that some books were less important? Luther has therefore extablished himself as the authoritative teacher of Scripture.

How could Luther argue that his interpretation of Scripture was authoritative and at the same time hold that everyone could interpret Scripture for himself or herself?
Luther confronted one of the most difficult questions of the Reformation: Who authoritatively decides what Christ revealed in the Scriptures or anywhere?
Luther never solved this problem. He became the interpreter of Scripture for his followers, that is, he put himself in the place of the Church.

What happened after this became very disconcerting. Luther's rejection of the papacy and his appeal to the civil rulers tied the Reformed Church to the secular powers. This alliance was to have very serious consequences in the wars of religion of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.

As enigmatic as Luther was, there were other major figures who colored the whole period, including Zwingli, Calvin, and Knox.

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jfree said:

What many a Catholic fails to recognize is that luther is a hero only to Lutherans, for the rest of us, he was just stating the obvious. You can try and defame him all you want, it will do no good to those who know that his complaints were just.

Jfree,
I'm always perplexed by Luther. Who called him to start a new religion? Who sent him out to rewrite the Bible? Who is he that he can challenge the revelations belonging to the Catholic Church and then change them because "he said so". Where did he get "Bible alone"? Who gave him these facts which are so different from the first 1500 years of Christianity? Who gave him "By Faith alone" where works are of no importance? Who does this guy think he is?

In the Gospels Jesus says more than once: "I do not come on my own. My Father has sent me." Yet no one called Luther to do anything. No one sent Luther anywhere. Who is the prime mover behind Luther? Who??? Yes that is a good question.

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[tits]

6) He wanted to end celibacy for priests.
7) He wanted to end the numerous feast days.
8) Luther denied the existence of the Sacrament of Confirmation, Matrimony, Holy Orders, and the Anointing of the Sick. Luther did not find these Sacraments in the Bible therefore he said they didn't exist.
9) Luther rejected the deutero-canonical books from the Old Testament, which the Church had always used, in favor of the Hebrew Old Testament. Luther also had 'problems' with James and the Apocalypse (Revelation).

The growing demand of American Humanism and the movement from the French seems to be bringing the above to the fore. I don't know about you, but I truly believe that the greatest threat to our faith is from the Left and their growing religion of Humanism and Tolerance. It seems that from every corner the media and the Left are preaching the old adage that only pain and suffering come from religions. They point to us Christians here and in the Europe, the Jewish minority in both the US and Israel, and the growing Muslim hoard to support their observations. Yet, when I review the classical definition of a religion, it becomes obvious that the Humanism and Tolerance movement is a religion unto itself.

A station that I listen to (http://bottradionetwork.com) plays a wide variety of Protestant Christian broadcasts: Focus on the Family, The Bible Answer Man, and many others, also carries Christian Legal show: American Center of Law and Justice (http://www.aclj.org/About/). This show is Jay Sekulow's (a Constitutional Law Lawyer who has presented dozens of cases before the Supreme Court) forum and news for discussing the legal battle field where we have failed for so many years. The legal challenge to the First Amendment, Seventh, and others that the Left's religion of Humanism and Tolerance has been winning. The current crisis is that the Left has managed to pass legislation to force the DOD to demand that Chaplains must not include the name of Jesus in any public prayer. This includes Priests as well as Lutheran Reverends. There is a petition and legal effort to give President Bush an Executive Order granting the freedom for all Government Chaplains (regardless of the branch) to speak and pray in the name of God.

Friend, the enemy is us and our distrust of others seeking to find the Faith. The enemy has been growing and becoming bolder & stronger while we have remained timid through our attempt to remain pure. I know Catholics who refuse to attend anti-abortion rallies because a Pentecostal was leading it. I know Church of Christ elder-ships who have instructed their flocks to refrain from appearing to compromise their faith by suggesting that membership in Promise Keepers was lead by a Baptist. I am formulating a letter to the elder demanding that our local U.S. Representative (Emanuel Cleaver - a Southern Baptist African American Democrat and devote support of the Freedom of Choice) how a man of God could enact legalization to deny my right to preach that abortion is murder. How does a Catholic such as Kerry, Kennedy, Pelosi, and the 49 other Democrats and the Southern Baptist pray to God and go out and preach that abortion is a matter of choice or that homosexuality is normal? Have they blacken those scriptures out of their bibles and hearts?

The enemy will win further insults against the First Amendment and our freedom to worship God and the Christ if we do not stand together. The Darth Vaderisque Hilary Clinton will win the Presidency and will lead a Congress that ensure abortion, homosexuality, and "tolerance" are promoted at the expense of the display of our faith.

How do the Catholic faithful feel about the erosion of the fundamental aspects of the faith and the erosion of our Religious Freedom?

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Well Tittus, I can't speak for all Catholics, but our Church is being revitalized right now as we speak. When I first started to attend the "Pro-Life March" in Washington DC every January, the majority of the people were well over 30 years old. There were hardly any teenagers or young adults in their early 20's. This last January saw 60% of the the Marchers under the age of 25 years old. (about!). There were more teenagers there than I had ever seen at any Pro-Life March. The average age of person at the March was about 28 years old. At any pro-abort get-together the average age is 60 years old. The pro-aborts are dying out and not leaving anyone to take their place. Good riddance to bad rubbish!!

Although the Marchers are represented by every religious group in the USA, they are still predominately Roman Catholic. This represents the activists who are Roman Catholic and the fact that they bring their energy to their personal Church, their hometowns, and the future which they represent in our country.

The Pro-Lifers will out live the pro-aborts. We will see the end of Roe v. Wade. and the end of abortion mills in our country.

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