Luther was a piece of work.

[jfree]

cataracts said:

Jfree,
I'm always perplexed by Luther. Who called him to start a new religion? Who sent him out to rewrite the Bible? Who is he that he can challenge the revelations belonging to the Catholic Church and then change them because "he said so". Where did he get "Bible alone"? Who gave him these facts which are so different from the first 1500 years of Christianity? Who gave him "By Faith alone" where works are of no importance? Who does this guy think he is?

In the Gospels Jesus says more than once: "I do not come on my own. My Father has sent me." Yet no one called Luther to do anything. No one sent Luther anywhere. Who is the prime mover behind Luther? Who??? Yes that is a good question.

Cataracts

You do not know who sent Luther and you cannot prove either way wether it was Gods will or his own. Luther did not rewrite the bible, we have gone over this, see anything by Jerome, it was quite clear text that were biblical and that which were not.

The bible also specifically condemns tradition, tradition is for the Pharasees. The word of God belongs to him, not to you and not to the supreme primate elected by men, not GOD. You see you cannot win the argument because for me Rome has no authority and is not Holy, it is just a city built by Pagans, and taken by a sect of Christianity that added traditions over the years. the bible in no uncertain terms condemns idols, yet they adorn many a church, I just don't get that, no amount of semantics will change that they are idols. An Icon is an Idol. Chanted prayers is also forbidden etc... I could go on forever, therein lies the rub and falsehoods of Rome as seen thru the eyes of a Christian who denies papacy.

[cataracts]

But Tittus, we digress.
In April of 1522, Zwingli, a Catholic priest, broke with Rome. During Lent Zwingli defended the freedom of every Christian to fast (abstain) or not according to his or her own understandings.
About the same time Zwingli entered into a secret marriage with a widow living in the neighborhood. The link between the 'fast and abstinance' laws of the Church and the disobedience of the celibacy requirement was the principle that the Christian is only bound by Scripture. Zwingli, through his own study of Scripture and his encounter with Luther, had come to the principle that the only norm for Christian behavior was the Scriptures. In September of that year Zwingli published a sermon arguing against using tradition or the authority of the Church in interpreting Scripture. Zwingli broke with the Church. The civil authorities in Zurich were more than happy to be the authority behind Zwingli.
What we have again is another reformer who had decided he knew the Bible better than anyone and then asked the civil authorities to be his authority.
Who asked Zwingli to form a new religion? Who asked him to interpret Scriptures? Who decided that Zwingli knew Scriptures better than the Roman Catholic Church that had been studying them for 1500 years? Again, Christ founded our Church. He was 'sent' by his Father. Who sent Zwingli? Who indeed??

Zwingli simultaneously broke with the Church and received his position from the city council. He decided to reject the papacy, the Mass, the intercession of the saints, fast and abstinence laws, religious orders, celibacy, and the misuse of excommunication. Scripture was to be the sole authority. Of course, no one knew Scripture better than Zwingli.

Not every priest or bishop in Switzerland agreed with Zwingli. They didn't want to give up their Church. Therefore the inevitable war broke out between the Catholics and the Protestants. In October of 1531 Zwingli was killed in battle.

Cataracts

[tits]

I pray that the Left does not take full control. I just hope that God has not turned his back on us.

I also believe that we people of faith must re-examine our perspective of sex. This topic is addressed in 60 separate commands in Leviticus. In fact it is the next most addressed topic in the scriptures to money.

The hypocrisy that I see in our stance on abstinence is that we, people of faith, cannot keep our pants on. There are just as many adulteries, fornications, and unwanted pregnancies within the faith as without. Adulteries and porn addiction and infidelity are now almost as common among women as men. On recent study showed that nearly 59% of all porn is purchased by women. Most psychology studies now being published seem to prove that equality between the sexes has been achieved in the realm of sexuality.

The abortion issue is with it's use as a "viable means of birth control". We both, those of us of faith disagree with this completely. However, we seem to refuse our human nature as sexual beings. This God given gift is at the root of so many of our problems. Money is the number one cause of divorce and sexual relations is a close second. Our society is replete with the promotion of sexuality even at the expense of our lives. Look at Britney, Jessica Simpson, and Anne Nicole Smityh. Three very beautiful women who lost everything in their attempted to live the life of the lies of physical beauty.

Is there a solution whereby we can admit that we are sexual beings and find that alternative to "abortion as a viable means of birth control?"

[jfree]

I think Paul answered that one quite well, if you cannot abstain, get married.

I am really surprised by that number for women buying porn, that can't be right, I just don't see it. I know it is more common now for women to watch it, but usually that occurs w/their boyfriend or husband. I absolutely hate porn, mosty because a study showed the majority of the person who participate were sexually abused as children and for me it appears they victimize themselves w/acting in these movies, it just further degrades them, and to me is abusive to purchase or watch the degradation of these people.

I always joke w/my hubby about my boys getting to be teenagers, though they never built chastity belts for boys I told him I would figure something out to keep my babies in check. But all I think we can really do as parents and as a society is first be a good example, don't cheat on your spouse, explain to them that although cohabitation on tv is common they do that to make the stories more interesting not because one should cohabitate, block out HBO! and hope to teach them that sexuality although natural like all urges needs to be disciplined, we all want cake all the time, but if we eat it all the time we get fat, if we sleep around we get diseases, hurt feelings and can only cause problems. I don't know, what do you think Tittus?

[tits]

I feel like such a failure. Of the four boys we raised, two have had failed marriages, one (the nephew with the mental health record) has two children out of wedlock, and our youngest dislikes women, though he has a long distance relationship with one in Canada.

We too attempted to prevent the crap from our house, but ... society is replete with it. The boys will be exposed with or without our blessings. We have friends who home-schooled to help protect their children. One has two daughters with out-of-wedlock children. The other seems to have done much better with their grown children.

j, the best that I could offer is my sincere prayer. Which according to Paul will work much good.

I agree with you concerning female purchasing porn. I believe that these women are buying it to share with their spouse whereas most males purchase it for selfish pleasure. Big difference, except that the media counts profits as markers of success, they do not care who buys and who is harmed.

[cataracts]

jfree said:

cataracts said:

Jfree,
I'm always perplexed by Luther. Who called him to start a new religion? Who sent him out to rewrite the Bible? Who is he that he can challenge the revelations belonging to the Catholic Church and then change them because "he said so". Where did he get "Bible alone"? Who gave him these facts which are so different from the first 1500 years of Christianity? Who gave him "By Faith alone" where works are of no importance? Who does this guy think he is?

In the Gospels Jesus says more than once: "I do not come on my own. My Father has sent me." Yet no one called Luther to do anything. No one sent Luther anywhere. Who is the prime mover behind Luther? Who??? Yes that is a good question.

Cataracts

You do not know who sent Luther and you cannot prove either way wether it was Gods will or his own. Luther did not rewrite the bible, we have gone over this, see anything by Jerome, it was quite clear text that were biblical and that which were not.

The bible also specifically condemns tradition, tradition is for the Pharasees. The word of God belongs to him, not to you and not to the supreme primate elected by men, not GOD. You see you cannot win the argument because for me Rome has no authority and is not Holy, it is just a city built by Pagans, and taken by a sect of Christianity that added traditions over the years. the bible in no uncertain terms condemns idols, yet they adorn many a church, I just don't get that, no amount of semantics will change that they are idols. An Icon is an Idol. Chanted prayers is also forbidden etc... I could go on forever, therein lies the rub and falsehoods of Rome as seen thru the eyes of a Christian who denies papacy.

Jfree,
The talk on sex is interesting and maybe you or Tittus would like to start a new post on it.
If I may, I would certainly like to answer this post from you.

If someone sent Luther, possibly God, I would have to say that Luther would have told us. As far as I can see, Luther sent himself.

Luther not only took seven books out of the Old Testament, he altered the Books of James and the Book of Revelations. As far as I can understand the Protestant viewpoint, nothing is clear. Just about everything concerning the canon of the Bible is opaque. There is only one clear understanding on my part. The canon of the Bible was put together around 400 AD and the Protestant reformers tinkered with it around the 16th Century. This would be 1200 years after the fact.

You're correct about traditions being condemned in the Bible. They are specifically condemned by Jesus. Anyone that would demand logic and reason in their life would understand that Jesus was not referring to the Tradition of His Church. That Tradition was not made yet. It didn't exist! Jesus was purposely knocking the tradition of the Jews. (which of course did exist at that time.) Jesus wasn't knocking the tradition of the Ten Commandments. He was knocking the man made traditions of the Pharisees. If you refuse to understand this, then there is definately a lack of reason and logic in your understanding of anything biblical.

When it comes to Christianity the Pope and the Magisterium of the Church are the only ones with authority. Every single Protestant reformer, except one, gave all the authority to the civil government that they were associated with. Grebel and Manz, who formed the Anabaptists, refused to give any authority to the civil government and they were eliminated by those very same civil governments. The Anabaptists are still fighting that battle today. They are now called the Amish.

I'll bet there's no one in your home that dares to say "you're wrong".

Whether you like it or not, Rome does indeed have the authority of Christianity. Authority has always been a severe sore point with any group of Protestants. They would rather start their own Church than submit to a proper authority. Of course, all Protestants know that none of them have authority. That's why there are 30,000 Protestants Churches in our country right now.

As a matter of fact, whatever Church or Churches that you have attended didn't even teach you that an icon is not an idol. What good is even talking to you if we use a different definition for the same words. Your Churches have not done you any favors. They have taught you to stubbornly and blindly attack the true Christian Church. At the same time you cannot defend your own against any reasonable or logical arguments. You are like a bunch of Muslims.

What moron ever convinced you that prayers are not to be chanted? Says who? Can there be any logical reason behind such an absurdity? The more you speak the more lost you become. And then you defend your stupidity by attacking the one true Church, which you know nothing about. If what you say is what a typical Protestant says, it's no wonder that the Protestant Church is made to be such a mockery.

Cataracts-

[jfree]

Uhh, I geuss it would be God you are calling a moron, since it comes from the bible cat.
Chanting:
Matthew 6:7 - But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions as the heathe do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. see also Ecc 5:2, 1Kings 18:26-29

Traditions:
Col 2:8-10 Beware lest any man spoil you thru philosophy and vain deceit after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power.
Col 2:14-18 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross: and having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come: but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in voluntary humility and worhipping of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding the Head,..

Yes directly he speaks of the Pharisees and the Jews, but it is a warning against all traditions of men, like the worshipping of angels. All things come thru Christ, nowhere does it qualify it as coming thru Christ and then some appointed man in a structured church which can add cannons and reject them till the second coming. Again, an opportune if not necessary opening to put down the heirarchal form of the church if there was to be one. Still no writings of the Apostles mention Popes, Papacies, vassels of Christ to whom we must listen, but alot about false prophets.

Idol worship: An image is an image is an image, whether it is gold, paint or velvet that is used in worshp of any sort, you are commanded to not even make them, that would include kissing them, praying to them, crosses images whatever.
Exodus 20:4,5 - Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord they God am a jealous God,...
[Isa. 42:8,9; 40:18-26; 44:9-20; 46:1-11; 48:3-6; 41:21-24; Psa. 115:1-9; 96:5; 97:7; Lev. 19:4; 26:1; Ex. 32:1-35; 23:24; 34:12-17; Hab. 2:18,19; Deut. 16:21-17:7; 27:5; Dan. 3; Rom. 1:23,25; 1 Thess. 1:9; 1 John 5:21; 1 Cor. 5:10,11; 6:9,10; 10:7,14; Rev. 21:8; 22:15; Acts 14:8-18.]
2 Corinthians 6:16-18 - And what agreement hath the temple of God w/idols? for ye are the temple of the living God as God hath said..touch ye not the unclean thing..

[cataracts]

jfree said:

Uhh, I geuss it would be God you are calling a moron, since it comes from the bible cat.
Chanting:
Matthew 6:7 - But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions as the heathe do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. see also Ecc 5:2, 1Kings 18:26-29

Traditions:
Col 2:8-10 Beware lest any man spoil you thru philosophy and vain deceit after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power.
Col 2:14-18 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross: and having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come: but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in voluntary humility and worhipping of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding the Head,..

Yes directly he speaks of the Pharisees and the Jews, but it is a warning against all traditions of men, like the worshipping of angels. All things come thru Christ, nowhere does it qualify it as coming thru Christ and then some appointed man in a structured church which can add cannons and reject them till the second coming. Again, an opportune if not necessary opening to put down the heirarchal form of the church if there was to be one. Still no writings of the Apostles mention Popes, Papacies, vassels of Christ to whom we must listen, but alot about false prophets.

Idol worship: An image is an image is an image, whether it is gold, paint or velvet that is used in worshp of any sort, you are commanded to not even make them, that would include kissing them, praying to them, crosses images whatever.
Exodus 20:4,5 - Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord they God am a jealous God,...
[Isa. 42:8,9; 40:18-26; 44:9-20; 46:1-11; 48:3-6; 41:21-24; Psa. 115:1-9; 96:5; 97:7; Lev. 19:4; 26:1; Ex. 32:1-35; 23:24; 34:12-17; Hab. 2:18,19; Deut. 16:21-17:7; 27:5; Dan. 3; Rom. 1:23,25; 1 Thess. 1:9; 1 John 5:21; 1 Cor. 5:10,11; 6:9,10; 10:7,14; Rev. 21:8; 22:15; Acts 14:8-18.]
2 Corinthians 6:16-18 - And what agreement hath the temple of God w/idols? for ye are the temple of the living God as God hath said..touch ye not the unclean thing..

Well Jfree, your answer to my last post is probably the best proof that you cannot interpret Scripture on your own. You are incapable of reading Scripture and then coming to a proper conclusion. Of course Protestants have been doing this for 400 years, so it's nothing new.

As far as your ridiculous response on idols go: Moses had made (or had made) a brass snake to cure all the Hebrews that walked under it. This was well past the time in Exodus when he received the Ten Commandments. Then there was the Arc of the Covenant. Two angels sitting on top. They took those carved angels with them everywhere they went.
It's nothing new. That is, it's nothing new that you are incorrect in the proper interpretation of the Bible. I strongly suggest that you, to the best of your ability, erase all those pictures of yourself on the 'Outpost' because they are graven images. Or were we supposed to worship you?
While you're at it, get rid of all the pictures of your children and other family members that would be in your home. According to you, having all these pictures would be a terrible sin.

I have heard many different kinds of chants. Some of the religious ones are truly beautiful. No pictures, no chanting, of some other specific music we are not allowed to listen to would make this a very dull Protestant world.

The Catholic Church has brought the fullness of revelations to man. It was and is the Protestant that brings the philosophy of man and man's many deceipts. You only have to go to any Protestant Church to find the queerness of Protestant beliefs. You wouldn't have to go far, they are all over the place.
I have made it no secret that I am Roman Catholic. I have yet to hear what religion you are. What's the name of your Church? Are you ashamed of it?

Another thing, which is a really good example of how you manipulate words and ideas.-------Abortion isn't mentioned in the Bible.
Drinking while driving isn't mentioned in the Bible. Muslims are not mentioned in the Bible. You sound really stupid by saying Popes are not mentioned in the Bible. With that you might even fool a four year old! And it's true what you said about 'false prophets'. All you have to do is listen to all the Protestant nonsense any Sunday morning on TV. Or, all I have to do is listen to you.

You have absolutely refused to listen to reason or logic. You're in a world by yourself. Your criticisms of the Catholic Church are totally without merit. Condemning the only true Church around is all you have to go on. If you go by your facts, you lose. You're surrounded by dead ends. Your theology is senseless. There is no authority in any of the Protestant Churches. There never has been any.

Cataracts-

[jfree]

cataracts said:

Well Jfree, your answer to my last post is probably the best proof that you cannot interpret Scripture on your own. You are incapable of reading Scripture and then coming to a proper conclusion. Of course Protestants have been doing this for 400 years, so it's nothing new.

As far as your ridiculous response on idols go: Moses had made (or had made) a brass snake to cure all the Hebrews that walked under it. This was well past the time in Exodus when he received the Ten Commandments. Then there was the Arc of the Covenant. Two angels sitting on top. They took those carved angels with them everywhere they went.
It's nothing new. That is, it's nothing new that you are incorrect in the proper interpretation of the Bible. I strongly suggest that you, to the best of your ability, erase all those pictures of yourself on the 'Outpost' because they are graven images. Or were we supposed to worship you?
While you're at it, get rid of all the pictures of your children and other family members that would be in your home. According to you, having all these pictures would be a terrible sin.

I have heard many different kinds of chants. Some of the religious ones are truly beautiful. No pictures, no chanting, of some other specific music we are not allowed to listen to would make this a very dull Protestant world.

The Catholic Church has brought the fullness of revelations to man. It was and is the Protestant that brings the philosophy of man and man's many deceipts. You only have to go to any Protestant Church to find the queerness of Protestant beliefs. You wouldn't have to go far, they are all over the place.
I have made it no secret that I am Roman Catholic. I have yet to hear what religion you are. What's the name of your Church? Are you ashamed of it?

Another thing, which is a really good example of how you manipulate words and ideas.-------Abortion isn't mentioned in the Bible.
Drinking while driving isn't mentioned in the Bible. Muslims are not mentioned in the Bible. You sound really stupid by saying Popes are not mentioned in the Bible. With that you might even fool a four year old! And it's true what you said about 'false prophets'. All you have to do is listen to all the Protestant nonsense any Sunday morning on TV. Or, all I have to do is listen to you.

You have absolutely refused to listen to reason or logic. You're in a world by yourself. Your criticisms of the Catholic Church are totally without merit. Condemning the only true Church around is all you have to go on. If you go by your facts, you lose. You're surrounded by dead ends. Your theology is senseless. There is no authority in any of the Protestant Churches. There never has been any.

Cataracts-

I made it quite clear in several posts which church I attended, even during your membership here, if you missed it, it was only because you weren't paying attention, I go to a Church of Christ, though I imagine by the venom in this post of yours, you only want to know so that you can ridicule me and the church I attend. I do not cotton to those who only wish to impose their imagined superiority on others. Sorry I don't believe the RCC is the one true church and you hate the versus I mention because it gives you pause, but I have only given you my honest opinion. You started this thread in a gambit to once again prove your churches superiority and spit in the eye of others beliefs, so when others respond w/their true feelings you've no right to be offended. If you don't like to be answered don't ask. It is really that simple. While the bible may not mention others beliefs or drinking and driving directly it addresses them nonetheless, you are not suppose to be drunk, you are not suppose to be worldly and you are to have no other god before God. This argument is used all the time that the bible doesn't mention things directly, but it does give specific on worship, on church heirarchy, on baptism etc.. we are to worship God thru prayer and singing, we are to have elders and deacons, we are to be baptized thru submersion, it also says thou shalt not kill making the answer for abortion quite obvious, so your argument is a nonsequitar at best. I clearly said images for purposes of worship, I said nothing of paintings or portraits, images of worship represent God, Jesus, Saints, Mary etc..that are hung in churches and homes for religious reasons, the bible is clear, if you cannot hear the word of God w/out anger how can you follow it? It doesn't matter if chanting is pretty to hear, we are not to be of the world, we are to follow the bible and it clear says no vein repititions as the heathens do. Jesus is the head of the church, no men need introvene against his will or put themselves in his place, to do so is blasphemous.

[cataracts]

Jfree,
Yes I now remember you mentioning the Church of Christ. One of 30,000 Protestant Churches that refuse to recognize the one true Church. The Tradition that you hate so much is actually "the Revelations of Jesus Christ". If you throw those out with the trash you are throwing out a vastly important part of Christianity. Revelations ended with the death of the last Apostle. It didn't end with the last word that the Apostle wrote. Protestants think that our God can be confined between the covers of the Bible, (which by the way was compiled by Roman Catholics). Protestants cannot cope with the fact that the authority of Christianity is in the Catholic Church. The reformers could never understand the fact that they have no authority. They went to their civil authority because they isolated themselves from the true authority. Of course their civil authority stabbed them in the back every time.
As time passed the Protestants grew farther and farther from true Christianity. They couldn't live with each other and they constantly attacked the bulwark that they came from. The Protestants also have tradition. It has come down through their own creators. As an example Luther wanted everyone to translate the Bible individually, but not different then he told them it should be. All the reformers were the same.
When are the Protestants going to leave their dead horse and get with the Catholic Church.

Cataracts

[jfree]

The only way Christians will join Catholics is when they rid themselves of the Papacy and added traditions, till then, nothin doin.

You can claim it added revelations, fact is there is not one shred of evidence from the Apostles that such traditions were taught by them, no biblical evidence supports it.

There are not 30,000 different sects, this is just used to insult. It is not yours nor the RCC's place to judge the fate of others, God was quite clear on that score. The only authority ever given in the bible was to God, Jesus and the twelve, no other authority is ever hinted at or directly named to add to their writings.Compiled by Catholics, why then was the original vulgate a copy of another, that pre-existed the foundations of the RCC in the Nicean council?

[tits]

J, you have fallen for the age old trap of arguing with a devote Catholic. They are as dogmatic as some of our older more fundamentalistic brothers. You will not win and only generate anger between the both of you.

Here is nice article for your review. You can find more on Hank Hannegraaff's Christian Research Institute pages.

www.equip.org/free/DC170-3.htm

Here is an excerpt:

"It is acknowledged by all, even by Catholic scholars, that there are contradictory Christian traditions. In fact, the great medieval theologian Peter Abelard noted hundreds of differences. For example, some fathers (e.g., Augustine) supported the Old Testament Apocrypha while others (e.g., Jerome) opposed it. Some great teachers (e.g., Aquinas) opposed the Immaculate Conception of Mary while others (e.g., Scotus) favored it. Indeed, some fathers opposed sola Scriptura, but others favored it. "

There are Priests practicing today, you can read about them in some internal publications. These Priests, as my cousin Tom, the almost Franciscian will proclaim, do not believe in the virgin birth or in the creation. If these Priests are teaching and preaching and they do not believe, what are they teaching. They must be the ones teaching the Catholic members of Congress who keep voting in favor of Pro Choice and Homosexual rights.

Sisters, the real issue before us is that Satan has divided our focus away from Christ. That we are little different from the Shi'a and Sunn'i Muslims who believe the other is so wrong that it is worthy of death. To our agnostic and atheistic countrymen we appear like children. Look at some of the postings from Fighting Falcon and others. They cite our bickering as proof of our hypocrisy. Christ himself said that you will recognize my followers by their unity. This from a man who claimed to have been sent to divide family: father against son, mother against daughter. Where is Christ's family if we cannot stand against the real evils?

Sisters, I was raised German Lutheran Missouri Synod while my Mother's family were devote Roman Catholic. I left both to find a more pure religion which I found in the Church of Christ. Does this mean that I believe solely in the more fundamentalistic ways of the COC? Does it mean that I have rejected the ROC? Does it mean that I have rejected the Lutheran church?

NO! It means that all three have some truths and all three have some false influences from their human leadership. It means that for me, I found Christ waiting with open arms. He was waiting for me to seek him. I found him in the scriptures and not in houses made with the hands of man.

Cat, I can find no, notta, none, not a single Christ spoken or Paul affirmed affirmation that the earthly bride of Christ, the Church, is to have an earthly head or leader. There is absolutely not a single scripture that dictates the formation of the Papacy.

J. James, the Lord's brother. told us what pure religion is suppose to be. The funny thing is that it reads just like the Levitical writings from which James and the original Apostles were taught. Pure religion and undefiled is this, to visit the fatherless and the widows in their affliction. If anything, the teachings of Christ and Paul tell us that God, just like He did with Malachi, finds our words and actions meaningless.

Sisters, all of the scriptures that I have ever memorized and read tell me two great truths. You cannot find God without finding Christ first. You cannot get into heaven without Christ. There are inferences that imply that we are to be part of the bride of Christ, but there are no scriptures that tell me that salvation if found in membership in the Church.

Cat, who adds to the Church? How are we added?

[tits]

CATHOLICS AND PROTESTANTS

www.equip.org/free/CP0813.htm

Conservative Roman Catholics and evangelical Protestants seem to hold much in common, but they also seem very divided. At what points do they agree — and at what points do they disagree?

It is true that conservative Catholics and evangelical Protestants have a lot in common. In fact, evangelical Protestants have much more in common with conservative Catholics than they do with liberal Protestants.

So just what are these points of agreement? Let me mention a few. To begin with, both sides accept the Old and New Testaments as the infallible, inerrant Word of God. Contrary to what a lot of Protestants think, Catholicism holds an incredibly high view of Scripture. Next, both Protestants and Catholics accept the full theistic attributes of God (God is considered all-powerful, all-knowing, just, holy, etc.). In addition, both churches affirm that God is triune, that He is one God who exists eternally as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It’s also important to point out that both Catholics and Protestants affirm Christ’s deity and humanity, His virgin birth, atoning death, bodily resurrection, ascension, second coming, and his judgment of mankind — not to mention the pro-life movement.

Now with so much in common, what in the world could possibly divide the Protestants and Catholics? Let me make a few points. First, Catholics and Protestants disagree over what the ultimate authority is for the believer. Catholics not only affirm the Scriptures, but also apostolic traditions as authoritative which results in a major point of contention.

Another major area of difference is focused on the question of salvation (specifically on justification). Protestants believe that salvation is by grace alone in Christ alone — and through faith alone. Catholics, on the other hand, believe that salvation is by grace alone in Christ — but (and this is a big but) it is appropriated through faith and works. This is also a major difference.

Much more could be said...but for now these are some of the points on which Protestants and Catholics agree and disagree. On Catholics and Protestants, that’s the CRI Perspective. I’m Hank Hanegraaff.



FOR FURTHER INFORMATION

For more information on this controversial topic, we recommend the book, Roman Catholics and Protestants: Agreements and Differences (Baker) by Norman Geisler and Ralph MacKenzie (B196/$25). This resource is available through CRI. For shipping and handling information, please refer to our Resource Listing. To place a credit card order, call toll-free (888) 7000-CRI. To receive a free copy of our Resource Listing, fax us at [phone] or write us with your request at P.O. Box 7000, Rancho Santa Margarita, CA 92688-7000.

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tits said:

J, you have fallen for the age old trap of arguing with a devote Catholic. They are as dogmatic as some of our older more fundamentalistic brothers. You will not win and only generate anger between the both of you.

Here is nice article for your review. You can find more on Hank Hannegraaff's Christian Research Institute pages.

www.equip.org/free/DC170-3.htm

Here is an excerpt:

"It is acknowledged by all, even by Catholic scholars, that there are contradictory Christian traditions. In fact, the great medieval theologian Peter Abelard noted hundreds of differences. For example, some fathers (e.g., Augustine) supported the Old Testament Apocrypha while others (e.g., Jerome) opposed it. Some great teachers (e.g., Aquinas) opposed the Immaculate Conception of Mary while others (e.g., Scotus) favored it. Indeed, some fathers opposed sola Scriptura, but others favored it. "

There are Priests practicing today, you can read about them in some internal publications. These Priests, as my cousin Tom, the almost Franciscian will proclaim, do not believe in the virgin birth or in the creation. If these Priests are teaching and preaching and they do not believe, what are they teaching. They must be the ones teaching the Catholic members of Congress who keep voting in favor of Pro Choice and Homosexual rights.

Sisters, the real issue before us is that Satan has divided our focus away from Christ. That we are little different from the Shi'a and Sunn'i Muslims who believe the other is so wrong that it is worthy of death. To our agnostic and atheistic countrymen we appear like children. Look at some of the postings from Fighting Falcon and others. They cite our bickering as proof of our hypocrisy. Christ himself said that you will recognize my followers by their unity. This from a man who claimed to have been sent to divide family: father against son, mother against daughter. Where is Christ's family if we cannot stand against the real evils?

Sisters, I was raised German Lutheran Missouri Synod while my Mother's family were devote Roman Catholic. I left both to find a more pure religion which I found in the Church of Christ. Does this mean that I believe solely in the more fundamentalistic ways of the COC? Does it mean that I have rejected the ROC? Does it mean that I have rejected the Lutheran church?

NO! It means that all three have some truths and all three have some false influences from their human leadership. It means that for me, I found Christ waiting with open arms. He was waiting for me to seek him. I found him in the scriptures and not in houses made with the hands of man.

Cat, I can find no, notta, none, not a single Christ spoken or Paul affirmed affirmation that the earthly bride of Christ, the Church, is to have an earthly head or leader. There is absolutely not a single scripture that dictates the formation of the Papacy.

J. James, the Lord's brother. told us what pure religion is suppose to be. The funny thing is that it reads just like the Levitical writings from which James and the original Apostles were taught. Pure religion and undefiled is this, to visit the fatherless and the widows in their affliction. If anything, the teachings of Christ and Paul tell us that God, just like He did with Malachi, finds our words and actions meaningless.

Sisters, all of the scriptures that I have ever memorized and read tell me two great truths. You cannot find God without finding Christ first. You cannot get into heaven without Christ. There are inferences that imply that we are to be part of the bride of Christ, but there are no scriptures that tell me that salvation if found in membership in the Church.

Cat, who adds to the Church? How are we added?

Hi Tittus,
Your posts were excellent. They were correct as far as they go, however you have made a normal Protestant misunderstanding about the Catholic Church.

There were differences of opinion among many of the Early Church Fathers, however these differences of opinions never went into the Tradition or the teachings of the Catholic Church. For something to enter into the official teachings of the Church, it must be OK'd by the Pope and the Magisterium of the Church. No one man can ever decide for himself what the teachings are or will be. The final teaching must be made by the Magisterium. The difference of opinions between men like Aquinas and Augustine are just that, differences of opinion. Under the same stress Protestants would form a different Church. Catholics understand that it is just a difference. Not Aquinas, Augustine or any other of the 33 Doctors of the Church have the 'authority' to decide what is Church doctrine. This is one of the Catholic Churches great strengths. From all the Protestants I have talked with, not one of them understand this.

As far as priests today differ with the teachings of the Catholic Church---who cares what they think. There is only three ways these priests will come out:
1) They will go back to the Church and accept the appropriate teachings.
2) They will die and be forgotten.
3) They will be excommunicated. Hopefully they will not die in their excommunication.

The heretical Catholic members of Congress are really pathetic. Every day they get older and closer to the grave. They can still come back to the Church. It's up to them. If they die in their heresies, then they will get the reward of a heretic.

As far as Christianity being seperated by Satan, this may be true. Let's start where the seperation began. With the Protestant reformers. The Catholic Church wants all the Christian Churchs to be united, but they are not going to accept a lie in order to do this. John Paul's very clear and concise statement holds out: "Truth cannot contradict Truth." The Protestants must give up the errors that they have been buried with for 500 years. There will be no unity among Christians until this takes place.

Tittus, please give me your definition of "the Old Testament Apocrypha".

None of the Early Church Fathers or any of the Doctors of the Church ever believed in 'Sola Scriptura'. Sola Scriptura is 100% a Protestant invention. As a matter of fact Luther invented it and all the reformers that came after him accepted it. This was never a Catholic belief. Also, if there was some Catholics that had believed it, it wouldn't have made any difference. It still has to go through the Magisterium. The Magisterium has never and will never accept this as true.

Tittus, your searching for the truth of which religion was best is something good. Please remember, the Catholic Church is controlled by the Holy Spirit. It's teachings are all true. I realize this sounds a bit far fetched to a Protestant, but would you expect anything less from the Holy Spirit.

So Tittus, you have decided there are no Scriptures that hold for the Papacy. Why am I not surprised? Like a good Lutheran you have examined the Scriptures and have decided what they mean. As a matter of fact every Protestant I have ever met does the same thing.( Read Jfree's posts).
Jesus turned to the Peter and told him that he was the rock. He was the keeper of the keys. He was to watch out for the lambs. There were more Apostles present at this time than just Peter, however, Jesus spoke to Peter directly and not to the other Apostles. Peter became the first Pope. The Papacy had started.
This is the way that our Magisterium interprets this Scripture. Not one man but a group of many men. Not only did the Magisterium interpret Scripture in this way, this is the way things worked out. Peter was the first Pope and the Papacy had begun.

The definition of religion that you gave is a very good one. However, let's understand something. There are 1 billion Catholics throughout the world. 1 billion people calls for order, structure, positions, and many other things that the Roman Catholic Church performs. If we ran our Church like the typical Protestant Church, chaos would reign. There's more than just this. The Church is the mystical body of Christ. It is His bride. This part of the explanation is not necessarily crystal clear. It is a mystery. Mysteries are good. After all we are dealing with God. The Creator of the universe. If we lived for a million years in Heaven we would not comprehend everything about God.


The way that I understand about who is added to the Church are those that have been baptised in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It is not necessary to be Catholic. From what I understand it is not necessary to be even a Christian. God will decide who gets into Heaven. Not us.

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tits said:

CATHOLICS AND PROTESTANTS

www.equip.org/free/CP0813.htm

Conservative Roman Catholics and evangelical Protestants seem to hold much in common, but they also seem very divided. At what points do they agree — and at what points do they disagree?

It is true that conservative Catholics and evangelical Protestants have a lot in common. In fact, evangelical Protestants have much more in common with conservative Catholics than they do with liberal Protestants.

So just what are these points of agreement? Let me mention a few. To begin with, both sides accept the Old and New Testaments as the infallible, inerrant Word of God. Contrary to what a lot of Protestants think, Catholicism holds an incredibly high view of Scripture. Next, both Protestants and Catholics accept the full theistic attributes of God (God is considered all-powerful, all-knowing, just, holy, etc.). In addition, both churches affirm that God is triune, that He is one God who exists eternally as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It’s also important to point out that both Catholics and Protestants affirm Christ’s deity and humanity, His virgin birth, atoning death, bodily resurrection, ascension, second coming, and his judgment of mankind — not to mention the pro-life movement.

Now with so much in common, what in the world could possibly divide the Protestants and Catholics? Let me make a few points. First, Catholics and Protestants disagree over what the ultimate authority is for the believer. Catholics not only affirm the Scriptures, but also apostolic traditions as authoritative which results in a major point of contention.

Another major area of difference is focused on the question of salvation (specifically on justification). Protestants believe that salvation is by grace alone in Christ alone — and through faith alone. Catholics, on the other hand, believe that salvation is by grace alone in Christ — but (and this is a big but) it is appropriated through faith and works. This is also a major difference.

Much more could be said...but for now these are some of the points on which Protestants and Catholics agree and disagree. On Catholics and Protestants, that’s the CRI Perspective. I’m Hank Hanegraaff.



FOR FURTHER INFORMATION

For more information on this controversial topic, we recommend the book, Roman Catholics and Protestants: Agreements and Differences (Baker) by Norman Geisler and Ralph MacKenzie (B196/$25). This resource is available through CRI. For shipping and handling information, please refer to our Resource Listing. To place a credit card order, call toll-free (888) 7000-CRI. To receive a free copy of our Resource Listing, fax us at [phone] or write us with your request at P.O. Box 7000, Rancho Santa Margarita, CA 92688-7000.

Tittus,
I have no idea where you get your information about the Catholic Church. Years ago I listened to a Protestant radio station. I was a good Catholic but I liked the sound of these Protestants. Two things happened which made me drop the Protestant radio station:
1) My understanding of Christianity was getting confused. Too many things were being said which made for contradictions.

2) They got a Protestant minister on the air one day and for 1 hour he blasted the Catholic Church.

I never listened to them again.

Your understanding of Catholicism is very confused.

It is the Church's job to be authoritive. It is the Church that has been handed the Revelations of God to man. God didn't hand those revelations to me. He handed them to the Church. There must be authority in the Church. Authority has always been a Protestant nightmare. They have no authority. They claim the Bible is their authority, but everyone interprets it for themselves. Very poor authority.

The Catholic Church venerates the Bible. We are encouraged to read it every day. Anyone can understand that the Bible is not the last word on God or on His revelations. The Bible is part of Catholic Tradition. How is it that any sensible person can determine that the Bible is all there is to Christianity?? It's absurd. At the risk of insulting the intelligence of every Protestant on this board, its laughable. It further shows what paupers the Protestants are. They are starving for spirituality. They are starving for knowledge of God. The reformers have done you no favors. Your shouting ministers have not helped you in the least by teaching you to hate Catholicism. The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ. Jesus will not establish any more Churches. The Catholic Church is the one and only!

Another point of clarification: Catholics believe that you must have faith in order to get into Heaven. However. you must also have works. The Book of James: Faith without works is dead. If you have dead faith, you probably won't make it.
There are other Scriptures that talk only about 'faith'. But it is never about 'faith alone"

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