Atheists Better Pray to God They’re Right

[Far Rider]

fightingfalcon said:

My memory isn't THAT bad, so if you're counting on it being so short that I don't remember when you were one of us, don't bother. You sound like yet another disgruntled ex-Catholic to me, and you'd be amazed at how many there are. They just join another religion and call themselves atheists.

Please, Mike - don't act like you can get a full picture of me simply based on what I wrote here and at THC. You might know a little about me but you are not privy to the inner debate that I had with myself for years. For many years I tried to cover it up but it reached a point that I began to question it openly. That is the side that you saw of me starting roughly a year ago. The war raged inside for much longer than that though.

What do you think I am, stupid?

You think I have never seen this before, and that I can't connect the dots? Maybe you think I was never young before, or that I never had doubts or never knew anybody who did.

You don't KNOW doubt. Try going through the Job experience I went through and see if you don't have doubt. That wasn't an "intellectual excercise" for me.

But every time I talk to somebody your age they think they are the only ones in the whole world who have ever experienced what they have experienced. Getting back to Job, though: why do you think Job resonated with me the way it did?

Because I've been there, and the guy who wrote Job has been there?

You're not going to die of terminal uniqueness.

[AmericanPride]

But neither atheists or religionists can answer the question of justice, but only dismiss it as irrelevant or regulate it to some notion of the afterlife.

Both atheists and religionists, unfortunately, miss the point.

[FightingFalcon]

Arguing with atheists is a waste of time anyway. If you say you believe in God and they say they don't, that should be the end of the conversation. They say you can't prove there is a God and they can't prove there isn't. It's not "more scientific" to claim there is no God, especially when by denying his existence you affirm his existence at the same time.

Like I said before, there are a million things that I can't disprove with 100% certainty. The existence or non-existence of god isn't a 50/50 thing. We shouldn't say that because I can't disprove him and you can't prove him that we should just move on. No one would actually argue that any pagan god exists because we know with probably 99% certainty that they don't exist. We know with 99% certainty that Noah's Ark never happened but scientists can't definitively rule it out.

Scientists are rarely able to rule anything out with 100% certainty. But that doesn't mean that we can't make an educated assertion as to whether something exists or not. If we couldn't, our level of intellectual growth would be severely retarded by having to entertain everyone's crack pot ideas.

You don't KNOW doubt. Try going through the Job experience I went through and see if you don't have doubt. That wasn't an "intellectual excercise" for me.

You don't need to have a traumatic experience to doubt the existence of god. You act like you need a legitimate reason to question your faith. How about questioning it just for the sake of knowledge?

[Far Rider]

fightingfalcon said:

We shouldn't say that because I can't disprove him and you can't prove him that we should just move on.

Why? You're never going to know this side of eternity so what good does arguing about it do? Atheists like Dawkins cause as much trouble by running off at the mouth about something they can't prove as Muslims do by running off at the mouth about their jihads, which is why I call them "fundamentalist atheists". (And Cat is right, Dawkins is so full of shit his eyes are brown - he has the weakest arguments you will hear on the subject; arguments that have been discredited over and over again.)

Scientists are rarely able to rule anything out with 100% certainty. But that doesn't mean that we can't make an educated assertion as to whether something exists or not. If we couldn't, our level of intellectual growth would be severely retarded by having to entertain everyone's crack pot ideas.

What does "science" have to do with this? Science is not religion and religion is not science. I don't know why supposedly educated people can't get that through their thick skulls. This is not to mention the fact that scientism is an incomplete worldview. If you think science can supply all the answers for you, you'll always have questions; bigger ones than you have now.

Science still doesn't know what caused the universe - athests mock the Bible because it says God spoke it into existence, so their explanation is "Oh, it was a 'singularity'".

Well, now we know, don't we?

But we do know that the universe appeared suddenly - a fact nobody argues.

And the idea that Christianity is not intellectual is a fraud perpetuated by atheists in the 20th century. Some of the finest scientists (like Issac Newton) and greatest minds (like C.S. Lewis and G.K. Chesterton) have been Christians.

How about questioning it just for the sake of knowledge?

Because you'll never know. To say you are doing it for "knowledge's" sake is a waste of time.

[Far Rider]

americanpride2 said:

But neither atheists or religionists can answer the question of justice, but only dismiss it as irrelevant or regulate it to some notion of the afterlife.

To atheists, there is no "justice". Shit happens.

And the purpose of Christianity IS justice. That question has been addressed.

[AmericanPride]

For the Christian religion, justice comes after you die and is not produced at all by Christianity, but by God, who by definition exists beyond the scope of religion. The Christian religion, or any other religion for that matter, does not create justice. Religion only commands, monitors, and regulates. Religion is inherently in contradiction to justice. Being formed and governed by men, its scope and powers are limited by the subjective and imperfect nature of Mankind. Therefore, the justice delivered by religion, if at all, is simply a reflection of what justice mankind does or does not accord to his fellow man.

[Far Rider]

americanpride2 said:

For the Christian religion, justice comes after you die and is not produced at all by Christianity, but by God, who by definition exists beyond the scope of religion. The Christian religion, or any other religion for that matter, does not create justice. Religion only commands, monitors, and regulates. Religion is inherently in contradiction to justice. Being formed and governed by men, its scope and powers are limited by the subjective and imperfect nature of Mankind. Therefore, the justice delivered by religion, if at all, is simply a reflection of what justice mankind does or does not accord to his fellow man.

Boy, are you laboring under a misconception.

God ordains governments to administer justice, independent of any church, and that is in the Bible. He ordains whole nations to administer justice to other nations - what do you think those books in the OT were about where they slaughter everybody in sight? Individuals and whole nations end up paying one way or another. It's scattered all through the Bible.

The biggest problem with non-believers is that they always want justice for someone else. They want to other guy to get his and they think they're good guys and don't deserve to be judged for anything.

But you will be, in this life or the next.

But even in Judaism, the just live by faith - that will get you out of the judgement you deserve and have coming. Christianity is the ultimate in forgiveness.

Some people just want to take their chances with judgement, because, like I said, they think justice is for the other guy.

[MARIO]

farrider said:

mario said:

But I find it weird when somebody goes from being a die-hard Catholic to a full-blown atheist in what...less than a year?

Arguing with atheists is a waste of time anyway. If you say you believe in God and they say they don't, that should be the end of the conversation. They say you can't prove there is a God and they can't prove there isn't. It's not "more scientific" to claim there is no God, especially when by denying his existence you affirm his existence at the same time.

There is no "intellectual" reason for the fundamentalist atheists like Dawkins to argue against God the way they do - it's an emotional argument, and you can never win an emotional argument.

Did you see how riled up all the atheists on the Christianity board got when I posted this article there?

What a bunch of useless assholes. That board has to gone to hell real fast.

[Far Rider]

Yeah, they scream like scalded cats when you give them a dose of their own medicine.

[FightingFalcon]

Why? You're never going to know this side of eternity so what good does arguing about it do?

I actually have to explain to you the implications for our planet if god didn't exist? The amount of religious warfare and human rights abuses that would disappear if not for god? You think the world would be exactly the same if suddenly we woke up and everyone was an Atheist? Man, you can't be that thick.

What does "science" have to do with this? Science is not religion and religion is not science.

It's funny, because people like you are probably the first to jump on any sort of scientific evidence that proves your retarded Creation story. Science is bad only so long as it disproves your religious belief but you cling to any scientific evidence that supports you. You can't have it both ways.

And no - science can't just stay away from religion. Again, I shouldn't have to explain to you the implications even in the scientific world if god were to disappear. One immediate benefit is that scientists wouldn't have to waste so much time arguing with Creationists...

If you think science can supply all the answers for you, you'll always have questions; bigger ones than you have now.

This is a bad thing how, exactly? Science provides us with a beautiful universe that opens itself up to human exploration and discovery. Religion closes off the universe and explains everything as simply god's will. You act like your ignorance is a good thing.

And the idea that Christianity is not intellectual is a fraud perpetuated by atheists in the 20th century. Some of the finest scientists (like Issac Newton) and greatest minds (like C.S. Lewis and G.K. Chesterton) have been Christians.

Again - if you hate science so much, stop trying to claim scientists as your own. Newton (and particularly Einstein) are frequently cited as being religious when that is far from the truth. Newton lived at a time when Atheism could be punished with death. Especially considering that he relied on patrons to pay for his research. Admitting his disbelief in a higher power would, at the very least, end his career - if not his life.

[AmericanPride]

farrider said:

americanpride2 said:

For the Christian religion, justice comes after you die and is not produced at all by Christianity, but by God, who by definition exists beyond the scope of religion. The Christian religion, or any other religion for that matter, does not create justice. Religion only commands, monitors, and regulates. Religion is inherently in contradiction to justice. Being formed and governed by men, its scope and powers are limited by the subjective and imperfect nature of Mankind. Therefore, the justice delivered by religion, if at all, is simply a reflection of what justice mankind does or does not accord to his fellow man.

Boy, are you laboring under a misconception.

God ordains governments to administer justice, independent of any church, and that is in the Bible. He ordains whole nations to administer justice to other nations - what do you think those books in the OT were about where they slaughter everybody in sight? Individuals and whole nations end up paying one way or another. It's scattered all through the Bible.

The biggest problem with non-believers is that they always want justice for someone else. They want to other guy to get his and they think they're good guys and don't deserve to be judged for anything.

But you will be, in this life or the next.

But even in Judaism, the just live by faith - that will get you out of the judgement you deserve and have coming. Christianity is the ultimate in forgiveness.

Some people just want to take their chances with judgement, because, like I said, they think justice is for the other guy.

Old man, the only misconception is that religion will "save" you.

Allah ordains governments to administer justice, independent of any church, and that is in the Koran. He ordains whole nations to administer justice to other nations - what do you think those books in the OT were about where they slaughter everybody in sight? Individuals and whole nations end up paying one way or another. It's scattered all through the Koran.

Religion is an instrument. The Bible is an instrument. And neither will ever produce justice without Man. The only thing to be "saved" from is oneself, and that does not start with Christianity, the Bible, or any other product of religion. Religion could "faith" itself out of existence if it actually deserved the goods now, rather than promising paradise in some vague notion of the afterlife. And unfortunately, the dependency created by religion creates an obstacle in itself for seeking justice on earth. "Oh God will do it, eventually..." No! You do it!

[FightingFalcon]

Chris - I'm pleasantly surprised. I thought I was gonna hafta convert you to Atheism this week but it looks like you're already there

[Far Rider]

I actually have to explain to you the implications for our planet if god didn't exist? The amount of religious warfare and human rights abuses that would disappear if not for god? You think the world would be exactly the same if suddenly we woke up and everyone was an Atheist? Man, you can't be that thick.

And I hope you're not that full of shit, and that you're just putting me on.

The bloodiest century in human history, the 20th century, was driven by atheistic governments and philosophies. This is not to mention the number of abortions that still go on daily. Blaming the ills of the world on religion is a falsehood that has been discredited over and over again, but for some reason you guys still keep trying to pass it off as truth.

It's funny, because people like you are probably the first to jump on any sort of scientific evidence that proves your retarded Creation story. Science is bad only so long as it disproves your religious belief but you cling to any scientific evidence that supports you. You can't have it both ways.

Boy - you have all the talking points down already. I have made a damn good living working in a science, dumb shit. Only a fundamentalist atheist wold say that I think "science is bad".

And no - science can't just stay away from religion. Again, I shouldn't have to explain to you the implications even in the scientific world if god were to disappear. One immediate benefit is that scientists wouldn't have to waste so much time arguing with Creationists...

Or in my case, this scientist wouldn't have to argue with a wannabe.

This is a bad thing how, exactly? Science provides us with a beautiful universe that opens itself up to human exploration and discovery. Religion closes off the universe and explains everything as simply god's will. You act like your ignorance is a good thing.

I am starting to think you don't know much about either science or Christianity. Do you know that in Isaiah it is written that the world is round (as opposed to flat),
one of many references to the real, physical world in the Bible. You would know that if you knew what the hell you were talking about. God points us to science, not away from it. And vice versa.

And the idea that Christianity is not intellectual is a fraud perpetuated by atheists in the 20th century. Some of the finest scientists (like Issac Newton) and greatest minds (like C.S. Lewis and G.K. Chesterton) have been Christians.

Again - if you hate science so much, stop trying to claim scientists as your own. Newton (and particularly Einstein) are frequently cited as being religious when that is far from the truth. Newton lived at a time when Atheism could be punished with death. Especially considering that he relied on patrons to pay for his research. Admitting his disbelief in a higher power would, at the very least, end his career - if not his life.
[/quote]

As I have already said, I don't hate science - I have made a good living off of it. What I don't like are wannabe kids with a hard on for the Catholic church trying to teach me my religion AND my business.

Newton could be punished by death? Dumb shit - Newton was a renaissance man, not a narrow minded bigot like the people who call themselves atheists today. He wrote a book about the Bible and prophecy, not to mention his scientific work. Einstein was a Jew.

I remember when you first got that motorcycle and you were an instant expert - am "member of the sport bike community". I laughed my ass off when I read that. Within a month and two wrecks later you had totaled the damn thing.

But you knew everything, and nobody could tell you anything. I resisted the urge then to say "I told you so" but I can't help but notice that you leave wreckage behind you everywhere you go. Ravi Zacharias calls guys like you "egg breakers" because you like to break eggs just to break them, and don't know what to do with them afterward. You have no logical, rational, or even describable argument on why you think what you do - all you have is talking points, and your argument consists mainly of taking potshots at religion and me.

That's right, you're even a failure as an atheist.

Before you adopt your next identity, how about learning something about it first?

[Far Rider]

americanpride2 said:

Old man, the only misconception is that religion will "save" you.

Punk kid, the misconception is that you think you know what I think.

[FightingFalcon]

That's right, you're even a failure as an atheist.

For a supposed Christian, you really are a holier than thou judgmental piece of shit.