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Post by cataracts on Aug 19, 2007 21:30:07 GMT -8
Fighting Falcon,
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"I'm a Rationalist and Empiricist by nature. Given an extraordinary event like this, I'll take the evidence around it and side with the most simple, most logical and most common sense solution out there. I won't go around attributing it to a magical deity for whom there is no evidence. "
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FF, I'm glad that you are an rationalist and an empiricist, that way you can't help but understand the logic of my proof:
You, FF, were conceived by your mother and father. You father was conceived by your grandfather and grandmother on your father's side. This grandfather was conceived by his parents. This grandfather's father was conceived by his parents. Your great grandfather's father was conceived by his father and mother.
We already have about 10 people who were directly responsible for you being here and we didn't even count your mother's side of the family. Nor did we count your father's mother's side of the family. The people that are responsible for your existance are quite numerous, and we really didn't even go back in history that far.
If we would go back, say 200 years, the amount of people that would be responsible for your birth would be a truly amazing number.
My question to you is, where is the first person that was responsible for your birth? The number responsible for your presence on Earth keep expanding the farther we go back. In no time at all there will be hundreds of people responsible for your existance.
With the theory of atheism there is no beginning for the people that are responsible for your existance. Time would just keep going back and back for ever. However, if we did that, then there could not be a first person. He would be an impossibility.
God made the first person. Then God made this man a wife. From these came the whole human race. How could this possibly happen if no God existed to start the ball rolling, so to speak.
I know that you will comprehend what I just said because by your own words you are a rationalist and an impiricist.
Cataracts
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Post by cataracts on Aug 19, 2007 21:46:11 GMT -8
Somewhere in the Old Testament it talks about the man that survived when thousands around him were killed. This man was special in God's eyes. However FF, the fact remains that we will die. Our bodies will be dead a long time. During that period and for all eternity afterwards we will be in Heaven or Hell. Where do you intend to go? Ooops, sorry, you don't believe in God or Heaven or Hell. But then it doesn't really make any difference whether you believe in them or not. You'll be going to one of those two places!! Cataracts And you really think this kind of talk will convince anybody of anything? Cat, all this talk does is show your intolerence for those with different beleifs. Do me a favor and leave this thread to me and James. I am sorry Battleborn. I was showing my intolerance. It's a bad habit that I have gotten into. I would show this same intolerance if I ran across somebody that was trying to fly out of a 30th story window. I feel that I would be forced to let my opinion predominate. I would tell him that he couldn't fly and be damned with anyone elses opinion. The same intolerance would crop up in me if I saw a man picking up a sparking wire lying in the street. I would tell him that there is 20,000 volts on that line and if he picks it up he will certainly die. No one could stop me from telling that guy this very important piece of information. On both of these examples the name Fighting Falcon could be inserted as the man that was going to fly out the window and also the man who was going to pick up the hot wire. Fighting Falcon is on a slippery edge in which he refuses to come back from. I will talk to him the same way I would talk to anyone that is placeing themselves in extreme danger. Opinions be damned! Cataracts |
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Post by FightingFalcon on Aug 20, 2007 0:10:56 GMT -8
Just wanted to answer Cat quickly - Zach, I'll get to yours later. If we would go back, say 200 years, the amount of people that would be responsible for your birth would be a truly amazing number.Indeed - I'll agree with you there that the chances of us being here are very slim to none. Had just one of my ancestors perished in the potato famine or one of Irleand's many wars with England, I would not be here. Had one of my ancestors in southern Italy died during its countless wars, rebellions or economic hardships, I wouldn't be here. That's why I value my life and don't throw it away in a hopeless obessesion with our "next" life. With the theory of atheism there is no beginning for the people that are responsible for your existance. Time would just keep going back and back for ever. However, if we did that, then there could not be a first person. He would be an impossibility.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolutionPlease educate yourself. |
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Post by cataracts on Aug 20, 2007 21:20:55 GMT -8
Fighting Falcon,
I had to laugh at your desire to educate me. Even if that history of the evolution of man was true, there's got to be 1000 holes in it. The point I'm making, however, is that even including these pre-homo sapiens, there had to be a starting point somewhere. There had to be a first ape or hominid. The Earth is estimated to be 4 billion years old. The Universe is estimated to be approximately 15 billion years old. Did our ape ancestors go back 4 billion years or say 15 billion years? For arguments sake, let's say they did, What was there 16 billion years ago?
The universe started with God. All creatures started with God. As a matter of fact, that where the word 'Creature' comes from ie., one that was created. God would be the Uncreated.
Your Wiki history lesson has proved my point.
Cataracts
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Post by FightingFalcon on Aug 21, 2007 13:21:03 GMT -8
Even if that history of the evolution of man was true,
You're right - I guess those fossils of our ancestors just don't exist...
All of those bones must be a figment of our imagination. Right?
The universe started with God. All creatures started with God. As a matter of fact, that where the word 'Creature' comes from ie., one that was created. God would be the Uncreated.
Your Wiki history lesson has proved my point.
So let me get this straight - your proof of the existence of god is that human beings and our ape forbears needed a creator.
Wouldn't that same logic apply to god? Doesn't he need a creator?
If you can accept the fact that god has simply "always" been there, why can't you apply that same logic to the universe? Why does the universe need a creator if god doesn't?
O I forgot - god is special...
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Post by FightingFalcon on Aug 21, 2007 13:26:11 GMT -8
What does a atheist say when all the evidence can't produce a logical and simple explianation? Do they just shrug their sholders and explain it away as random chance? Is this an example of an Athiest who cannot or will not see God in anything?
No, we don't shrug our shoulders and say that it was random chance. We say that given our limited knowledge and evidence, we can't come to a definitive answer. While Theists love situations like these to plug their divine creator, our inability to answer certain questions of the universe does not prove your religion.
How can a man act in such a calm manner when confronted by his own certain death? How does he keep moving forward? Perhaps it's God's influence.
Perhaps. Or perhaps it was indeed just luck. Why is it so easy for you to accept the fact that god directly intervened but you get all bent out of shape when I suggest it was luck? You could probably say the same thing about me but at least I have logic and common sense on my side.
I'm not depressed and I certainly don't hate my fellow man, neither does Tittus, Merc, Mike, or a host of others. It was a BS statement and my post response was that I could say the exact same thing about athiests. You say it doesn't apply to you, fine. You say it doesn't apply to most athiests, fine, but you say that Thiests "are depressed and begin to hate their fellow man" than all your doing is displaying some bitterness over the religious beliefs of others and in your own way showing how you "hate your fellow man."
You don't see too many Atheists going to psychiatrists, feeling worthless or desperately trying to seek meaning to their lives. You won't know what I'm talking about until (or if) you come to this side.
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Post by cataracts on Aug 21, 2007 21:47:35 GMT -8
Even if that history of the evolution of man was true,You're right - I guess those fossils of our ancestors just don't exist... All of those bones must be a figment of our imagination. Right? The universe started with God. All creatures started with God. As a matter of fact, that where the word 'Creature' comes from ie., one that was created. God would be the Uncreated.
Your Wiki history lesson has proved my point.So let me get this straight - your proof of the existence of god is that human beings and our ape forbears needed a creator. Wouldn't that same logic apply to god? Doesn't he need a creator? If you can accept the fact that god has simply "always" been there, why can't you apply that same logic to the universe? Why does the universe need a creator if god doesn't? O I forgot - god is special... Yes Fighting Falcon, God is not Created. The universe is created. It was created by God. He made it out of 'nothing'. To say that God is extremely special is to say not too really very much about God. He's more than special. I know there are holes in my argument, but basically you're correct. The universe and all things, including man, needed a Creator. We call this Creator--God. Cataracts |
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Post by FightingFalcon on Aug 21, 2007 23:17:33 GMT -8
So the proof of god is that the universe needs a creator.
But god himself doesn't need a creator
Normally I would argue here that your logic makes absolutely no sense but I forgot that logic doesn't apply when dealing with religion.
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Post by cataracts on Aug 22, 2007 14:13:27 GMT -8
So the proof of god is that the universe needs a creator. But god himself doesn't need a creator Normally I would argue here that your logic makes absolutely no sense but I forgot that logic doesn't apply when dealing with religion. Just like a typical atheist. You claim to use reason and logic, but when someone comes up with something you don't know how to deal with, you ridicule them. I would call this behavour 'ignorance'. So far every atheists I have come across is exactly the same. There may be some atheists out there that are sincere and intelligent. They would probably be ashamed of you. |
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Post by cataracts on Aug 22, 2007 14:21:26 GMT -8
Falcon said:
You don't see too many Atheists going to psychiatrists, feeling worthless or desperately trying to seek meaning to their lives. You won't know what I'm talking about until (or if) you come to this side.
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Falcon, this has got to be the stupidest statement you have ever made. Did Dawson say this or is it an original with you?
McGrath has to be correct. He said Dawson's book is aimed at people that are very ignorant. What more can I say?
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Post by FightingFalcon on Aug 22, 2007 23:04:17 GMT -8
Dawkins. His name is Richard Dawkins you moron.
You can't get his name right (or Ayn Rand for that matter) yet you think you have the authority to speak on his works.
My god you need help - open a book not written by a god damned Catholic one of these days. You might actually learn something.
Or not.
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Post by jfree on Aug 23, 2007 20:41:02 GMT -8
Wow, that is naive and generalized statement FF. Actually having a degree in that arena, having worked in probations, womens shelters and for native organization as a counselor, I can say in no uncertain terms you are 100% incorrect, especially in the probations office, lack of faith is a common characteristic to say the least, and nearly ever single one expressed a need for direction and purpose and extreme feelings of social ineptitude and lonliness.
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Post by cataracts on Aug 24, 2007 5:58:44 GMT -8
Thank you jree. I like it when we're on the same side.
C.
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Post by cataracts on Aug 24, 2007 6:05:47 GMT -8
Fighting Falcon,
I'm sorry that I mistyped Dawkins name. I didn't do it on purpose. It was an accident on my part.
However I am surprised by your reaction to the misspelling. Dr. McGrath did talk about atheists treating Dawkins as if he were a god. The atheists could not tolerate any criticism about Dawkins.
Do you worship Dawkins? You do realize that he is only a created man? Not only that but he isn't even that smart. You do have a free will, so worship as you like, but I can't help thinking you are really wasting your time.
Cataracts
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Post by FightingFalcon on Aug 24, 2007 7:05:42 GMT -8
You didn't misspell shit. You called him "Dawson" in this thread and called the book the "Dawson Delusion" in the other thread.
You're a joke but its hard for me to be angry with you because you have been so incredibly brainwashed by your religion. You're so far brainwashed that you criticize literary works without even READING them! What an asshole!
No, Dawkins isn't my god or a god. I'm all up for someone criticizing him but first they have to actually read his fucking books.
Not only that but he isn't even that smart.
That's real ironic coming from a backwards and brainwashed idiot like yourself.
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