Random Chance?

[dustdevil28]

To James and David.

I know you two have tended to reject most aspects of religion and for whatever reason think that mysticism doesn't happen in the world. I understand your arguement on the side of science and how there is a logical explination for most of what was once considered devine, but there are still aspects of the world that sceience can not explain and probably never will. One of those is the ability of certain leaders not to be hurt through there life even when put in extreme circumstances.

You see this when you look at the life of George Washington. Often he road in between battle lines in a effort to rally the continential army and even before that he often found himself in battles where his coat was pieced numerous times with bullets, yet the man himself remained untouched.

Orrin Porter Rockwell received this proclamation from Joeseph Smith in Illinois "I prophesy, in the name of the Lord, that you — Orrin Porter Rockwell — so long as ye shall remain loyal and true to thy faith, need fear no enemy. Cut not thy hair and no bullet or blade can harm thee."

Despite being a lawman with a reputation equal to wyatt earp, jesse james, and Butch Cassidy, Rockwell went on with his life and died of natural causes.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porter_Rockwell

In world war 1 Alvin C. York received the Congressional Medal of Honor after he charged a German machine gun nest with no cover and was able to kill 20 men and take 132 prisoner.

Strange things that science can not, and probably will never be able to, happen all the time.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_York

[cataracts]

Sergeant York is still an inspiration for me today.
God Bless him!

[FightingFalcon]

Neither I nor any scientist would argue that the universe is dominated by random chance. That's a term made up by Theists to make us look retarded but Atheists have never used it.

OK so you've got two examples of people who, given the odds, should have died. Do you know how many people fight and die in combat? The odds of Sgt York doing what he did are probably very small - I guess he should thank the 99.9999% of soldiers who have been face-to-face with a machine gun and died.

I find it incredibly ironic that you use a story about Orrin Porter Rockwell to back up your claim. If I were to make the same exact quote to you and you died, we would simply say that you had bad luck.

But if I make that kind of statement and you survive for a long time, you attribute it to Jesus. Plenty of good people are put in life-threatening situations, pray to god to help them yet still die. Plenty of people are put in life-threatening situations, pray to god to help them and they live. The fact is that there is no difference between them other than the fact that you consider one a miracle and I don't.

[dustdevil28]

fightingfalcon said:

Neither I nor any scientist would argue that the universe is dominated by random chance.

Yet you argue it anyway. In expaining what happened with York you simply state that "he should thank the 99%" of Soldiers who died before him. In other words your attributing it to random chance.

I gave you three examples if you include Washington, but that's what they are, examples. I'm sure you know that I could come up with a lot more if need be.

OK so you've got two examples of people who, given the odds, should have died. Do you know how many people fight and die in combat? The odds of Sgt York doing what he did are probably very small - I guess he should thank the 99.9999% of soldiers who have been face-to-face with a machine gun and died.

German machinegunners, who have already inflicted huge losses on the 324th that day suddenly can't hit a man coming towards them alone and with no cover? Talk all you want about percentage of those killed during the battle, what happened with York is impossible given conventional explination.

I find it incredibly ironic that you use a story about Orrin Porter Rockwell to back up your claim. If I were to make the same exact quote to you and you died, we would simply say that you had bad luck.

It was yet another prophesy of Joeseph Smith that came true. Considering the hatred of Mormons in the east and the disdain that they were treated with even after moving west, it's more than a little surprising that a man like Rockwell, well known and distinguished, could put himself in from of danger repeatidly and yet suffer very few scars or injuries.

But if I make that kind of statement and you survive for a long time, you attribute it to Jesus.

I attribute it to Gods will and I go on living as I think I should. For the others I offer my condolences and a reminder that the rain falls on the just and unjust alike.

My point is just to point out that for every scientific theory that you'll cite, there is always a anomaly. While you can be certain about a few things, sceince and common explination will not explain others and where they fail to explain you can probably see a devine reason in it.

[cataracts]

Thirty years ago I was travelling to work on a dark, cold, rainy, November morning. I was by myself.
I heard a voice saying "caution". The word was pronounced very clearly and loudly. It could have been said by a person sitting next to me, but I was very alone at the time.
I started looking around me for what I should be cautious about. There was a car approximately 500 feet in front of me. I was travelling about 60 mph and I was slowly catching up to him. The car was travelling in the lane to my left. When I finally caught up to him the driver very quickly swerved his car in front of mine and then slammed on the brakes. He had intended for me to rear end him. There were no other cars on the freeway. The police would have assumed that I was driving carelessly and slammed into the back of this guys car. I could have been severly injured and probably sued.
The 'voice' saved me from possible harm and a lawsuit. Was that God running interferrence for me? Yes I think it was. How can the word 'caution' before the incident be explained any other way. Maybe it was my guardian angel acting on behalf of God.
There were no random acts here. Everything that happened was done purposely.

Cataracts

[FightingFalcon]

I gave you three examples if you include Washington, but that's what they are, examples. I'm sure you know that I could come up with a lot more if need be.

You could come up with examples where people claimed that god helped them and it worked? How about the millions of examples when people pray to god and they still die? I guess that's all just part of god's plan, right?

German machinegunners, who have already inflicted huge losses on the 324th that day suddenly can't hit a man coming towards them alone and with no cover? Talk all you want about percentage of those killed during the battle, what happened with York is impossible given conventional explination.

Maybe they jammed. Maybe they weren't looking. Maybe York got lucky. Maybe Allied fire distracted them. Any one of those solutions is better than a fairy-tale sky god directly intervening to save but one of his billions of creatures while millions are slaughtered around him. How about the soldier next to York that probably prayed to god yet still got a bullet in the head? I guess he wasn't worthy, was he?

It was yet another prophesy of Joeseph Smith that came true

I won't bash Mormonism because I like you Zach. But I don't really need to bash Mormonism because its beliefs do that for me.


My point is just to point out that for every scientific theory that you'll cite, there is always a anomaly. While you can be certain about a few things, sceince and common explination will not explain others and where they fail to explain you can probably see a devine reason in it.

There are things in our universe that, given our limited intellect and scientific knowledge, we cannot fully explain as of yet. Please tell me why our lack of knowledge on a subject automatically means that some mystical being in space directly intervened. As I've tried to point out on this board (with limited success), the negation of my beliefs does not prove yours. I cannot stress that point enough. Maybe one of these days someone will be able to understand that.


There were no random acts here. Everything that happened was done purposely.

God intervened to save you but he did nothing while 90 million people died in WWII? He does nothing while millions are displaced and murdered in Sudan? He does nothing while over half of his creation lives in tyranny?

Your beliefs are incredibly and wickedly evil. I don't want to even try to understand the mindset of someone who thinks that way.

[dustdevil28]

You could come up with examples where people claimed that god helped them and it worked?

I could give you plenty of personnal examples of people whose faith in God is the defining momment in their lives where they become productive and good people. Most will give stories of eventually coming to a crossroad in their life and making the choice to go to God. God helps those who help themselves and in placing their trust with him they saw a path that they thank for their improved life.

How about the millions of examples when people pray to god and they still die? I guess that's all just part of god's plan, right?

It depends on how they chose to live their lives. When faced with death did they curse or praise God's name? Did they embrace the fact that they were going home, or did they curse him for taking them too soon? The rain falls on the just and unjust alike, how we react is how we define our faith.

Maybe they jammed. Maybe they weren't looking. Maybe York got lucky. Maybe Allied fire distracted them. Any one of those solutions is better than a fairy-tale sky god directly intervening to save but one of his billions of creatures while millions are slaughtered around him. How about the soldier next to York that probably prayed to god yet still got a bullet in the head? I guess he wasn't worthy, was he?

there were about 152 men in that trench. How many guns jamming, soldiers suddenly not looking and distractions would it take to explain York's actions? No offense, but there's no way in spinning that one.

I won't bash Mormonism because I like you Zach. But I don't really need to bash Mormonism because its beliefs do that for me.

Oh gosh, I'm so thankful for that .

There are things in our universe that, given our limited intellect and scientific knowledge, we cannot fully explain as of yet. Please tell me why our lack of knowledge on a subject automatically means that some mystical being in space directly intervened.

I'm not trying to attack your beliefs or lack thereof, but I do think that events and people like York, Rockwell, and Washington provide for a interesting discussion on divine intervention or guidance. For me, I hold the belief that God endowed us with free will and in doing so he doesn't so much as intervene as he will show us a path which we can chose to follow or not.

God intervened to save you but he did nothing while 90 million people died in WWII?

How did world war 2 start? Did the people not chose their leaders and their own fate?

He does nothing while millions are displaced and murdered in Sudan? He does nothing while over half of his creation lives in tyranny?

He does nothing, or more accuratly WE DO NOTHING[/u]? If mankind wanted to stop darfur and tyranny than we could. It is the collective choices of mankind through their freewill that brings this about.

[FightingFalcon]

Most will give stories of eventually coming to a crossroad in their life and making the choice to go to God. God helps those who help themselves and in placing their trust with him they saw a path that they thank for their improved life.

I came to a cross-road in my life and chose to reject god. Now, I have an amazing job living in a great country with my best friend. I have a life that I always dreamed about as a kid. I've accomplished all of this on my own free will while standing on my own two feet. I owe god nothing for what I have now.

When faced with death did they curse or praise God's name? Did they embrace the fact that they were going home, or did they curse him for taking them too soon?

I brought up this story earlier and I'll bring it up again. The one about my brother's best friend who died at 25 years old of an extremely rare form of cancer. His mother went to church every single day and prayed to god for her son to get better. Yet he still died.

You can explain to her why god was justified in taking her one and only son so early in his life - but I won't.

there were about 152 men in that trench. How many guns jamming, soldiers suddenly not looking and distractions would it take to explain York's actions? No offense, but there's no way in spinning that one.

I'm not going to keep debating this one example. You've shown me nothing to prove that 1) god exists or 2) that he intervened to save York's life. All you proved is that York survived a situation that, given the conditions, he probably should have died. But nothing in this universe, not even the laws of gravity, are guaranteed with 100% certainty.


He does nothing, or more accuratly WE DO NOTHING? If mankind wanted to stop darfur and tyranny than we could. It is the collective choices of mankind through their freewill that brings this about.

So god will go through all this trouble to save one Alvin York but he won't lift a finger to save millions of other people?

What type of wicked deity are you worshiping?

I love how when things go well (e.g. people are saved or their death is prevented) its because of god's grace and divine intervention. But when things go poorly (WWII, Darfur, etc.) its because of our evil free will. Everything good is god's benevolence and everything bad is our evil brought upon by our actions.

If you want a recipe for apathy and depression, that mindset is surely it. No wonder so many Theists become depressed, feel alone and begin to hate their fellow man.

Thankfully, I suffer from none of that. I love my life and feel bad for nothing.

[dustdevil28]

I came to a cross-road in my life and chose to reject god. Now, I have an amazing job living in a great country with my best friend. I have a life that I always dreamed about as a kid. I've accomplished all of this on my own free will while standing on my own two feet. I owe god nothing for what I have now.

So, you reached your cross road at age 22 eh. . Pardon me if I'm a bit skeptical of that statement, but I'm somehow certain that by the time your 40 you'll probably look back at numerous events between than and now as more significant crossroads.

I brought up this story earlier and I'll bring it up again. The one about my brother's best friend who died at 25 years old of an extremely rare form of cancer. His mother went to church every single day and prayed to god for her son to get better. Yet he still died.

You can explain to her why god was justified in taking her one and only son so early in his life - but I won't.

I'm sorry for your friend and I'm sorry for his mother. I don't believe it's my place to try and explain it to her. If she wants to challenge why God took her son she has plenty of options available to her. For the time being I would think it's better for her to have her grief and to come to her own will on how to walk her path.

I'm not going to keep debating this one example. You've shown me nothing to prove that 1) god exists or 2) that he intervened to save York's life. All you proved is that York survived a situation that, given the conditions, he probably should have died. But nothing in this universe, not even the laws of gravity, are guaranteed with 100% certainty.

And you have not shown me how it is possible that God doesn't exist. When faced with this one example your reply was that "guns jammed." Sorry James, but if you can't see the significance here than I doubt any proof of God would be sufficient to you, he could appear before you and you'd write it off as a dillusion.

Also, your "the laws of gravity are not 100% certain" is kinda what I've been trying to say. Science is supposed to be certain, and exact in everything that it does, but when you allow for doubt than you allowing that science could be wrong. If science is wrong than what is the real force in the world? To me, I look at this as one example in many of God's existance.

So god will go through all this trouble to save one Alvin York but he won't lift a finger to save millions of other people?

What type of wicked deity are you worshiping

One that tells me to be kind and to love my neighbor and honor my father. Yeah, wicked I know.

As for York, I don't know what happened to him that day or why he was spared, but it was a extrodinary event and since I can not explain it I thought it'd be ingteresting to see what a athiest thinks about it.

He was a man who had a strong conversian to Christianity before the war and tried to avoid service as a conscientious objector. During his lone charge on the machine gun trench he implored the Germans to surrender with the idea of killing as few as possible. The ranking German officer emptied his entire clip at York and hit nothing but air, afterwards he decided to surrender himself and his men. Perhaps you can look at it as God sparing a good number of Germans in that exchange as well, but it still is an event that remains a enigma.

I love how when things go well (e.g. people are saved or their death is prevented) its because of god's grace and divine intervention. But when things go poorly (WWII, Darfur, etc.) its because of our evil free will. Everything good is god's benevolence and everything bad is our evil brought upon by our actions.

Maybe it wasn't God intervening so much as it was a inner influence leading them towards a better path. They still had to follow that path and thus it was their choice. As for Darfur and the world wars, how are they not also the product of free will?

If you want a recipe for apathy and depression, that mindset is surely it. No wonder so many Theists become depressed, feel alone and begin to hate their fellow man.

Bullshit. You could say the exact same thing about athiests. A lifestyle of believing in no higher power than themselves, a life that fills with contempt for those that dare to believe otherwise and a life that sees only the darkness of mankind rather than the goodness of Christianity. Anybody could make the same case.

Thankfully, I suffer from none of that. I love my life and feel bad for nothing.

Everyone has regrets James, it's not a matter of belief it's just a part of life. If you don't feel bad for nothing than I'd say that's further proof you haven't come to your crossroad just yet. Only time will tell though.

-Zach

[cataracts]

Somewhere in the Old Testament it talks about the man that survived when thousands around him were killed. This man was special in God's eyes. However FF, the fact remains that we will die. Our bodies will be dead a long time. During that period and for all eternity afterwards we will be in Heaven or Hell. Where do you intend to go? Ooops, sorry, you don't believe in God or Heaven or Hell. But then it doesn't really make any difference whether you believe in them or not. You'll be going to one of those two places!!

Cataracts

[dustdevil28]

cataracts said:

Somewhere in the Old Testament it talks about the man that survived when thousands around him were killed. This man was special in God's eyes. However FF, the fact remains that we will die. Our bodies will be dead a long time. During that period and for all eternity afterwards we will be in Heaven or Hell. Where do you intend to go? Ooops, sorry, you don't believe in God or Heaven or Hell. But then it doesn't really make any difference whether you believe in them or not. You'll be going to one of those two places!!

Cataracts

And you really think this kind of talk will convince anybody of anything? Cat, all this talk does is show your intolerence for those with different beleifs. Do me a favor and leave this thread to me and James.

[FightingFalcon]

cataracts said:

Somewhere in the Old Testament it talks about the man that survived when thousands around him were killed. This man was special in God's eyes. However FF, the fact remains that we will die. Our bodies will be dead a long time. During that period and for all eternity afterwards we will be in Heaven or Hell. Where do you intend to go? Ooops, sorry, you don't believe in God or Heaven or Hell. But then it doesn't really make any difference whether you believe in them or not. You'll be going to one of those two places!!

Cataracts

This is my all time favorite Theist argument. That we're going to die and we're going to go to Heaven or Hell so therefore you should believe. It's the modern-day version of Pascal's Wager and it makes me laugh.

Do you REALLY think that god would be dumb enough to save someone who believed simply because they wanted eternal salvation? Wouldn't an omniscient deity know whether someone believed because they truly accepted Jesus or because they just wanted to avoid Hell?

When I tell people I'm an Atheist, 99% of the time they'll come back with "Wow....aren't you afraid of Hell?" I'm beginning to get the feeling that Theists believe not because they truly love their deity but because they want to avoid Hell. Man....I can't wait to see the looks on their faces when they die. Metaphorically speaking, of course.

[FightingFalcon]

And you have not shown me how it is possible that God doesn't exist.

Nor will I ever. My goal is not to disprove the existence of god because that can never happen. Just as I can't disprove many other deities out there.

Sorry James, but if you can't see the significance here than I doubt any proof of God would be sufficient to you, he could appear before you and you'd write it off as a dillusion.

Hey for once I agree with you! If god appeared in front of me, I probably would write it off as a delusion. The mind can play tricks on you and I would surely begin to doubt my sanity if a magical deity appeared in front of me.

Science is supposed to be certain, and exact in everything that it does, but when you allow for doubt than you allowing that science could be wrong.

Not wrong - just not completely certain. Just because the law of gravity could theoretically not work once, that doesn't mean that its wrong or there are any doubts. Just because I could technically walk through a wall if the atoms react a certain way, that doesn't change the laws of solids or make it wrong.

Why does there have to be a "real force" in the world? Why are humans always desperate to believe in something bigger than themselves? Why can't we be content with being the most powerful creatures in our universe? Notwithstanding alien life, of course. Theism has so incredibly destroyed human pride that we're so afraid of standing on our own two feet and acknowledging our greatness a la the Tower of Babylon.

One that tells me to be kind and to love my neighbor and honor my father. Yeah, wicked I know.

The one that also says to devote your life to others, that your life has no meaning and that your chances of getting into Heaven are extremely small unless you hate your family and give up all your money. Yea, that one.


As for York, I don't know what happened to him that day or why he was spared, but it was a extrodinary event and since I can not explain it I thought it'd be ingteresting to see what a athiest thinks about it.

I'm a Rationalist and Empiricist by nature. Given an extraordinary event like this, I'll take the evidence around it and side with the most simple, most logical and most common sense solution out there. I won't go around attributing it to a magical deity for whom there is no evidence.


Bullshit. You could say the exact same thing about athiests. A lifestyle of believing in no higher power than themselves, a life that fills with contempt for those that dare to believe otherwise and a life that sees only the darkness of mankind rather than the goodness of Christianity. Anybody could make the same case.

The darkness of mankind? Isn't that Christianity's role? To constantly tell us how evil mankind is and worthless they are?

When did I ever say mankind was evil? I don't think in such terms.

[dustdevil28]

Nor will I ever. My goal is not to disprove the existence of god because that can never happen. Just as I can't disprove many other deities out there.

Well at least we can agree on that.

Not wrong - just not completely certain. Just because the law of gravity could theoretically not work once, that doesn't mean that its wrong or there are any doubts. Just because I could technically walk through a wall if the atoms react a certain way, that doesn't change the laws of solids or make it wrong.

As soon as you walk through a wall or someone else does this may be a valid counter arguement. Until than we can see that strange unexplainable things do occur in this world.

The one that also says to devote your life to others, that your life has no meaning and that your chances of getting into Heaven are extremely small unless you hate your family and give up all your money. Yea, that one.

Compassion for others is wicked now?

Where did you get that I must hate my family to get to heaven?

I'm a Rationalist and Empiricist by nature. Given an extraordinary event like this, I'll take the evidence around it and side with the most simple, most logical and most common sense solution out there. I won't go around attributing it to a magical deity for whom there is no evidence.

And so far you've found no reasonable explination based on the evidence. What does a atheist say when all the evidence can't produce a logical and simple explianation? Do they just shrug their sholders and explain it away as random chance? Is this an example of an Athiest who cannot or will not see God in anything?

Again I'll state that I do not know how or why York survived that day, no logical explination will do. I do find in interesting that throughout the fight he strove to kill as few Germans as possible. How can a man act in such a calm manner when confronted by his own certain death? How does he keep moving forward? Perhaps it's God's influence.

The darkness of mankind? Isn't that Christianity's role? To constantly tell us how evil mankind is and worthless they are?

Maybe yours was, but mine has always told us how good we are and what good we are capable of being.

When did I ever say mankind was evil? I don't think in such terms

Your previous post stated this.

If you want a recipe for apathy and depression, that mindset is surely it. No wonder so many Theists become depressed, feel alone and begin to hate their fellow man

I'm not depressed and I certainly don't hate my fellow man, neither does Tittus, Merc, Mike, or a host of others. It was a BS statement and my post response was that I could say the exact same thing about athiests. You say it doesn't apply to you, fine. You say it doesn't apply to most athiests, fine, but you say that Thiests "are depressed and begin to hate their fellow man" than all your doing is displaying some bitterness over the religious beliefs of others and in your own way showing how you "hate your fellow man."

[cataracts]

battleborn said:

cataracts said:

Somewhere in the Old Testament it talks about the man that survived when thousands around him were killed. This man was special in God's eyes. However FF, the fact remains that we will die. Our bodies will be dead a long time. During that period and for all eternity afterwards we will be in Heaven or Hell. Where do you intend to go? Ooops, sorry, you don't believe in God or Heaven or Hell. But then it doesn't really make any difference whether you believe in them or not. You'll be going to one of those two pla

And you really think this kind of talk will convince anybody of anything? Cat, all this talk does is show your intolerence for those with different beleifs. Do me a favor and leave this thread to me and James.

Sorry Battleborn, but if you want to talk to just FF then do so on your email. As long as you're on this forum I want to very much give you my opinion. It's no trouble for me. It's actually a pleasure.
Cataracts
Cataracts