We Hate Gringos

[AmericanPride]

101,

Nothing you said disputes or discredits my argument.

Try again.

[101ABN]

americanpride2 said:

101,

Nothing you said disputes or discredits my argument.

Then you're even more obtuse than I thought.

Good day.

[peterd]

American Pride, let me ask you this. Do you respect all laws this nations has on the books? When you say there is no difference between legal and illegal immigrants, please provide me with legal justification, not personal views or what we want to happen. The way I am understanding your opinion, is that you would let anybody in. Is this statement correct? If not, please explain. Where do you get the white America identity. It is strange. When I was in the military, our color was green. I hope green is not a racist color.

[jfree]

That's the thing -- there's no difference between legal and illegal immigrants. Both come here to work, and both work hard. What creates the difference is a misguided and outdated policy that has been shaped by white America's racial identity. I cited some of the sources from the lawmakers themselves in this thread. America is not a land of vigilantism. It's a land of not only law -- but just law. It's apparent from the consequences of our immigration policy that it is neither just for immigrants or Americans.

The difference between legal and illegal immigrants besides legality is respect, respect for the laws of a country they've no right to enter except by the allowance made by the host country. Our policies and allowances are much more lax than most other countries except maybe Spain. Racial identity is a red herring, cultural identity of the country is far more important, part of our culture is our laws, and we expect all who come here to respect our culture and our laws, they don't have to like it or agree w/it, but they do have to respect it. Just laws in immigration is a law that observes the desire of others to come here and reconciles it w/the needs, desires and will of those who are already citizens, making limits on immigration to ensure status quo and not upset the delicate balance of American values and culture.

You asked about disease. You question should be: how many illegal immigrants would be inoculated against disease if they were not institutionally excluded? Our immigration policies HURT Americans as much as it hurts illegal immigrants. If you exclude them from the system, how can you reasonably expect any kind of accountability? In law enforcement? In medicine? In education and social services? You can't! The obvious solution is to abolish immigration quotas in order to erase the institutional mechanisms that create the artificial class of "illegals". By enfranchising all immigrants, the perceived problems related to illegal immigration (crime, taxes, disease, culture and language, etc) will disappear overnight. It's a strategy of co-opting -- not one of alienating. It's how you build credibility, generate loyalty and trust, and diffuse tension and the origins of conflict (and vigilantism).

As we do not have socialized medicine, innoculations and illegals are moot points, if you want to come here legally you have to have certain innoculations to protect the natural citizenry from third world diseases that would endanger said group. No illegals means no more danger of that. Quotas are sound and necessary and there is nothing artificial about following laws.

But, tell me, why don't Americans want more people? Why don't they want to encourage more immigration? Why do they say "America is full"?

America can only support and assimilate so many persons at a given rate, don't like it? Tuff, Spain is taking as many as want to come, I suggest jumping on a slow boat across the Atlantic.

[AmericanPride]

Do you respect all laws this nations has on the books?

No. I do not. I doubt that many on this very board do either. Did you drink underage? Have you turned without using a signal? Run a parking lot stop sign? The government fails to recognize its own laws half the time -- how many states have MJ laws that contradict federal law? There are a whole host of laws that are consistently ignored. There is also a body of law, natural law, that exceeds government law, which had been the moral and legal justification for the establishment of this country and a number of political and social movements that have transformed America. When natural law and state law contradict, natural law always supersedes state law. Thus, the importance of law is not held within itself as a law, but that it is consistent with the natural law that govern men.

is that you would let anybody in

I think that's a loaded question. I would let anyone in who so desires, with bans imposed on those with serious criminal records.

Where do you get the white America identity. It is strange. When I was in the military, our color was green. I hope green is not a racist color.

I am not saying that you are racist. I am saying that our immigration law has originated from and continues to be shaped by racial beliefs. Jfree is right that culture has become the catch-word regarding immigration, but I ask how many black, hispanic, and Asian Americans do you see on the border with rifles? And I say middle class because it's that class that plays the largest part in these kind of exclusionary policies -- the working class has very little relative political participation, and the upper class (the business executives, etc) consistently support immigration, even illegal, to sustain low wages.

As we do not have socialized medicine, innoculations and illegals are moot points, if you want to come here legally you have to have certain innoculations to protect the natural citizenry from third world diseases that would endanger said group.

You're right. And the only way to make that kind of system accountable is to have the people entering the country to go through all the pipes. But by placing a quota lower than the demand to enter the country, the class of illegals avoid it entirely. There is simply no way to track people who are a not a part of the system by default. We're endangering ourselves. This same concept applies to law enforcement, taxation, social services, and even culture. By alienating a largely homogeneous element of society, we only work to consolidate the identity they already hold rather than building the foundations of assimilation.

No illegals means no more danger of that.

There are two ways to make sure there are "no illegals". The first is to build up a system that prevents every single illegal immigrant from entering the country. It's not only expensive (paying for agents, training, logistics, facilities, etc), but it's not feasible (logistically or politically). The second way is to abolish the institutional controls that create illegals in the first place: quotas. I am not saying we relinquish control over immigration, and just simply allow people to meander across the border wherever whenever. I am saying we abolish the regulation that marks a line between who is illegal and who is legal by virtue of what number they are to enter the country.

Quotas are sound and necessary and there is nothing artificial about following laws.

You misinterpreted my statement. I never said that following laws is artificial. I clearly stated that the underclass (illegal immigrants, largely Hispanic) created by the institutional system of quotas is artificial. There is nothing to distinguish them from any other class of immigrants except an unjust law. It is apparent that American immigration law is unjust by harming both Americans and illegal immigrants, both of which fall into the same category of "human".

America can only support and assimilate so many persons at a given rate, don't like it? Tuff, Spain is taking as many as want to come, I suggest jumping on a slow boat across the Atlantic.

Don't like it? I won't move to another country because I disagree with our laws. That's what happens in corrupt countries that do not respect public opinion. Is that what you are advocating? Like it or leave it? That's definitely not an American value -- if Americans don't like something, they fix it. And that's what I am advocating here. Now if you disagree with the value that allows me to speak out against laws I believe are unjust, I won't ask you to leave the country, but I will certainly question your values as an American.

[jfree]

AP, I meant those who wish to leave their country of origin and immigrate can go to Spain, it has very easy immigration laws because it's population is falling rapidly, not you personally.

People who come here illegally create their own problems and subgrouping, not law abiding immigrants and not immigration law. It is by the choice and favor of the citizenry of each country to allow others to move there or not, it is not a natural or god given right to subvert legal immigration systems just cause you don't like your country of origin, now that is not devaluing their humanity but respecting the laws of each land. I am in favor of increasing allowances made for people of countries w/totalitarian or fascist or abusive countries to come here more easily, I think every boat of Cubans should be let in, so long as they are not criminals by our laws, and I am all for as many Chinese or N.Koreans who want to escape to come here as well, but I am not for free for all immigration run like a feeding frenzy, there should be order and quota's that respect those who are already citizens as it is their rights that matter, it's their taxes and hard work that create opportunity and they should not be served on a platter to any and all who want to feed, we need to respect Americans in America first.

[peterd]

AP if don't respect laws of our nation, then what laws do you respect. If you feel that U.S. has a racial problem just because we don't care for illegal immigrants, than try Germany or other European countries. When you decide to come back then you have a chance to educate us. It seems that your comments are more based on your feelings then reality.

[AmericanPride]

People who come here illegally create their own problems and subgrouping, not law abiding immigrants and not immigration law.

That is not entirely accurate. The people that come here illegally do so because they perceive the opportunities here, despite the costs and problems, to exceed those from the country of their origin. Illegal immigrants work just as much, if not more, than legal immigrants. The persons who make a willful decision to discriminate against immigrants, legal or not, create problems. And they do so on the basis of immigrant law which makes a distinction between kinds of immigrants. The distinction itself is not made between those with criminal records and those without, those fleeing from persecution or those simply wanting to work, but instead on an arbitrary number that has no foundation in reality. Immigration is not a "feeding frenzy". Stronger and more concentrated waves of immigration have swept the United States, and it did not sink. It did not lose "order". America's opportunities and wealth were not "served on a platter" to anybody -- and they aren't today. Immigrants worked and made something of themselves. Hispanics are no different. If Americans want respect, even from themselves, in this country, they need to start participating in the political process, educating themselves on current events, and releasing themselves from the constraints of ignorance.

AP if don't respect laws of our nation, then what laws do you respect.

Simply because there are some laws I do not respect does not mean there are not laws I do respect. Likewise, simply because there are laws that you respect, does not mean there are not laws you do not respect. The respect of one law is not determinant of respect for another law. You're simply painting with a broad brush.

If you feel that U.S. has a racial problem just because we don't care for illegal immigrants, than try Germany or other European countries.

The existence of Germany's and Europe's racial problems does not release us from addressing the racial problems in our own country. The comparison has no bearing upon the problems that face us here.

It seems that your comments are more based on your feelings then reality.

This coming from the same guy that advocated deporting citizens for doing things he thought "stupid".

[bounce]

AP, the charge of "RACISM" is getting really old.

When people start throwing it around willy-nilly, it eventually cheapens it.

Pretty soon, everyone has heard it sooooo damn much that they start to ignore it.

WHen I hear people scream "Racism" as the basis for wanting to secure our borders, I feel the urge to yawn.

There is real racism in our world, but the desire to secure our borders isn't it.

"Racism" is too easy and it's overused to the extreme. It's a charge that the simple-minded buy in to. You need to work past that.

[AmericanPride]

Bounce,

I'm not calling anyone here racist. I clearly stated that our immigration law originated from racist beliefs -- the very first restrictive immigration law was called the "Chinese Exclusion Act". It doesn't get any more direct than that. The entire system of quotas we have now was originally established to preserve the racial make-up of America (then, at the time, against the large influx of Italians and southern and eastern Europeans). Racial beliefs are just as much a part of cultural identity as anything else. And, because of the nature of our country's history and current political-economic conditions, the "WASP" identity is the predominant point-of-view. Even if racism is "overused", it doesn't take away from the problems that are still related to it.

[bounce]

americanpride2 said:

Bounce,

I'm not calling anyone here racist. I clearly stated that our immigration law originated from racist beliefs -- the very first restrictive immigration law was called the "Chinese Exclusion Act".

Now you're pulling a "Falcon." Rather than deal with our society TODAY, you prosecute your country for some bullshit that was done back in the 1800s.

Why are we supposed to feel "guilty" for that? People like you will be using this for the next 500 years to PROVE what a racist bunch we are. Your great, great, great, great grandkids will be saying, "SEE! Look at what happened 500 years ago! Our entire culture descended from RACISTS! Therefore we're no better today! SEE!"


You need to get past that shit.

It doesn't get any more direct than that.

No, it doesn't get any more IRRELEVANT than that.

The entire system of quotas we have now was originally established to preserve the racial make-up of America (then, at the time, against the large influx of Italians and southern and eastern Europeans).

So why aren't THEY WHINING about racism? Hmmmm?

Racial beliefs are just as much a part of cultural identity as anything else.

Not by me they're not. I don't give a shit where someone's ancestors come from. I am an American. WE ARE AMERICANS. My ancestors come from Ireland and Germany and so many other places that I have to just group the whole thing together as being "Western Europe." I don't refer to myself as a "Western European American."

To the extent you can't get past the race thing, only you are hurt.

To the extent you can't see that, you are blocking your own progression as a human.

And, because of the nature of our country's history and current political-economic conditions, the "WASP" identity is the predominant point-of-view. Even if racism is "overused", it doesn't take away from the problems that are still related to it.

I do not have problems that stem from racism or sexism, yet I was racially discriminated against as a teen and sexually discriminated against in the market place as an adult.

I went to a predominately Hispanic High School where it was made perfectly clear to me that "brown is better" and that I was directly to blame for every problem they and their ancestors had ever had - dating all the way back to Christopher Columbus. They reminded me of it every single day.

I hated it so much that I went to summer school and "after school" classes to graduate early. I graduated a year early just to get the fuck away from it.

Then, after spending 15 years gaining the necessary education and qualifications to be an airline pilot, it was perfectly clear that ANY WOMAN with less than half the qualifications I had would not only be hired ahead of me, but they were COURTED for employment.


Today I am past all that. I hold no grudges against anyone for any reason and I have no problems that stem from those issues.

It was ME that had to change. It was ME that had to get past it all.

To the extent you dredge shit up from the 1800s as an excuse to level a "racism" charge today, you only fuck yourself.

If you don't care to see it, then fine. Nobody else is going to care or listen to you. The whole "racist" charge is starting to fall on deaf ears.

Getting wrapped-up in the "race" thing makes you weaker. Getting past it will make you stronger. I don't think I really understood that myself until AFTER I got past the issues I had with it. Once I let it go, things got much better for me. It's YOU that has to do it. Nobody can do it for you.

[AmericanPride]

Rather than deal with our society TODAY, you prosecute your country for some bullshit that was done back in the 1800s.

Gee -- obviously you FAILED to read every post prior to that last one in which I discussed our immigration policies today. The line quoted simply was a reference to the origin of American immigration law. By the way -- the Chinese Exclusion act stated in placed until 1940 and the quota system, designed to preserve the "WASP" national character of the country (as stated by the politicians that legislated it), is still in place.

Why are we supposed to feel "guilty" for that?

Where did I say anyone should feel "guilty"? I stated that our immigration law is based on race. YOU brought up the accusations of racism. Stop projecting your insecurities on to me.

You need to get past that shit.

It looks like you're the one caught up on the idea of race and racism. I only brought it up. You're the one that's squirming and making accusations. Not me.

So why aren't THEY WHINING about racism? Hmmmm?

They did and do. Don't you read or watch the news to make informed opinions? Hmmmm?

Not by me they're not. I don't give a shit where someone's ancestors come from.

Good for you. But not once in any of the previous posts did I talk about you.

To the extent you can't get past the race thing, only you are hurt.

That is, until the others around you "can't get past the race thing" and try to "hurt" you because of it. I care less about racial identity than you do -- but at no point did I ever talk about your or my views on race. I have always been talking about America's immigration law. Your opinion on race is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the opinions on race by the politicians that designed the quota system.

But it's curious as to why white conservative Americans generally take discussions about race to equate to personal accusations about their character. Why is racism a sensitive subject for them but not for Hispanics, Blacks, and Asians? Or is this more "whining"? How much "whining" will I have to listen to about white conservative Americans denying that race isn't even an issue anywhere?

[bounce]

You have a lot of issues with race that you have yet to clear up in your mind. I am going to leave you to your issues. You can either deal with them or not. Not my problem.

However, THIS part I will answer:

But it's curious as to why white conservative Americans generally take discussions about race to equate to personal accusations about their character.

Nobody mentioned your color - why are you making MINE an issue?

Why is racism a sensitive subject for them but not for Hispanics, Blacks, and Asians? Or is this more "whining"? How much "whining" will I have to listen to about white conservative Americans denying that race isn't even an issue anywhere?

Because the races YOU MENTION are the ones FUCKING SCREAMING ABOUT IT YOU MORON!

I never whined about racism and sexism. I just dealt with it!

Race and sex stop becoming an issue when you just face and deal with the unfairnesses of life and stop throwing it in everyone's FACE like YOU ARE DOING!

I am sick of hearing your fucking whining! You seem to think people of color are the only ones who experience racism.

You have mentioned the word RACE at least 1000 times MORE than everyone else on this board put together!

Get the fuck over it or keep it to yourself.

I couldn't care less and you are not about to try to make me feel guilty for issues YOU HAVE with it!

YOU ARE NOT ABOUT TO GET ANYONE HERE TO BUY INTO YOUR "Desire for BORDER SECURITY = RACIST" BULLSHIT!

Go sell that to someone else. Nobody here is buying it.

[AmericanPride]

Because the races YOU MENTION are the ones FUCKING SCREAMING ABOUT IT YOU MORON!

Gee -- I wonder why they would do that. Maybe because it ACTUALLY is an issue? Ya think? Or don't you?

I never whined about racism and sexism. I just dealt with it!

You're whining about it RIGHT NOW. Even time the word race is mentioned, or that racial problems is described as a possible problem in a particular situation, YOU WHINE.. "Blah blah blah race is overused blah blah blah."

Race and sex stop becoming an issue when you just face and deal with the unfairnesses of life and stop throwing it in everyone's FACE like YOU ARE DOING!

Haha. Wow. YOU are the one throwing it in MY face. I never said you were racist, or that anyone on this board is racist. I simply said that US immigration law has an origin in racism. And then you WHINED. Again.

I am sick of hearing your fucking whining! You seem to think people of color are the only ones who experience racism.

Quote me.

You have mentioned the word RACE at least 1000 times MORE than everyone else on this board put together!

And that somehow detracts from race as an issue? Only someone who REFUSES TO THINK ABOUT THE ISSUES would think that mentioning the ACTUAL ISSUE is bad.

Get the fuck over it or keep it to yourself.

Get the fuck over yourself.

I couldn't care less and you are not about to try to make me feel guilty for issues YOU HAVE with it!

Not once did I call you racist or said that you are responsible for US immigration law. Now why would you feel guilty? Is there something you're hiding. If you're not racist, then talking about the issue of race in the context of US immigration law shouldn't make you feel guilty.

YOU ARE NOT ABOUT TO GET ANYONE HERE TO BUY INTO YOUR "Desire for BORDER SECURITY = RACIST" BULLSHIT!

There you go with more all caps and less coherent points. I think I've identified an inverse relationship.

Go sell that to someone else. Nobody here is buying it.

If you don't like it -- don't read it. You know -- like changing the channel. I bet you scream at the TV too.

[jfree]

Last I checked AP Cubans were hispanic, or don't they count? Didn't I just say we should take in more Asians and Cubans? Now I am a racist because I think we should have a quota to maintain status quo? I believe America belongs to Americans and not to every person on the planet who wants to better their situation in life? Am I wrong? Does America belong to everyone else?

We have a right as a country to be sovereign, to maintain and control our own borders and to limit entry and migration into said lands, or do you not believe that?

America has a responsiblity to it's people, you know citizens, to answer to their needs and desires first and foremost, and that includes not flooding the country w/immigrants, displacing citizens from jobs, or lands and not handing out tax payers money to every sally sob story that comes along. Do I feel bad that others have hard lives? Absolutely, but I don't find it necessary to burden my fellow tax payers w/my pity and force them to support people who evade the legal system. For Mexico I have no pity, it is a democratic country whose citizens seem more interested in migrating illegally than in fixing their own country, for Cubans I again say let them in whenever they come so long as they aren't criminals by our standards.