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Post by tits on Nov 17, 2006 12:16:34 GMT -8
come from. While the statement is true on the surface, there are too many scriptures that warn that we can lose our salvation. Years ago I had a very interesting converstaion with a woman, in a bar of all places, on salvation. She believed the doctrine meant that she could die in the act of a sin and was still saved. When I was kid and deployed to DaNang, I wrestled with the concept of "thou shalt not kill." While I had reached the justification of being forced to possibly take a life in the line of battle, I rationalized that the line would be crossed if I began to "murder those SOBs". By this I mean killing the enemy when there was no need to or when my heart was full of hate. Humph, but that is what we were taught in basic. For all of us who have taken another life, in battle, accidentally, or otherwise. Does that doctrine apply to us? I personally believe that I can lose my salvation and that is what Jesus meant with the parable of the lost sheep. The sheep were together and one strayed, the shepherd left the 99 and retrieved the one. There is much rejoicing in heaven when one of the children return.  |
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Post by cataracts on Nov 22, 2006 2:30:39 GMT -8
Hi Tittus,
Nice topic. Once saved always saved is not now nor has it ever been a teaching of the Catholic Church. This one is strictly Protestant.
Another reason to join the Catholic Church!!
Cataracts
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Post by MrDoublel on Nov 28, 2006 7:50:34 GMT -8
Interesting topic, and one I have thought on more than once. My belief is, God is far from being a fool and it is know that you can go astray. So, no, I think once saved always saved is the argument the weak will make to avoid the ugly truth of how they may be living their lives.
I had a "talk" with some fellow soldiers at a military school a few years ago. It was in the morning and several were talking about the great time they had at the bar the night before. This same group was tisk tisking earlier in the week over how a couple of us didn't attend church on sunday. I mentioned how I found it interesting that they, being good Baptists, were out carousing the night before yet criticised us for not going to church. The looks of guilt and mumbled comment about Jesus forgives were clasic. I replied that going to church was like getting your ticket punched? That sunday everything gets cleared up for the week? Needless to say, they didn't like that. :-)
To think you can play the Lord is to walk on dangerous ground. I know I'm far from perfect but I also know that I try to live my life as a christian...and never take the Lord for granted.
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Post by cataracts on Nov 28, 2006 8:04:03 GMT -8
sfcdouble,
I may be mistaken,but "once saved always saved" came into Protestantism with Luther. Luther could not abide with the Roman Catholic's "Sacrament of Confession". This is how he got rid of it.
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Post by MrDoublel on Nov 28, 2006 8:14:51 GMT -8
Both ideas run the same risks though. Get your ticket punched and you are in the clear. I was raised catholic and even as a child thought it odd that a mear mortal could absolve me of my sins (As if a child really has sinned). I stopped being a practicing catholic a long time ago. I never stopped being a christian tho. I've stumbled more than once, and sought His forgiveness, but never intentionally went out to break His law thinking I'd just punch my "Forgiveness Ticket" on sunday. People who belive this are assuming He is a fool, that he doesn't see the truth of what is in your heart.
That being said, I am in no way shape or form a biblical schoolar. Just a guy who has read the Bible and knows the truths held therein. :-)
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Post by tits on Nov 28, 2006 9:55:26 GMT -8
I agree Sarge, we Christians are real hypocrites. We preach one thing and then do the other. This is what my post on us being sexual beings alludes to.
It is also the reason that Christ is such a marvelous gift. Where the Hebrew had to offer specific sacrifices for specific sins. We have been given a single sacrifice. It is up to us to maintain contact.
I was reading Genesis again and struck by Abram's argument with the Lord concerning the destruction of the valley of Sodom and Gomorrah. "You wouldn't do it if there were 50 righteous people". The argument so many use: "If God was a loving God he would not let bad things happen" However, God has a history of throwing out the baby with the dirty wash. From the Flood to the destruction of Israel, Judah, and Judah, a careful study of the word shows that some of the prophets were caught in the destruction.
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Post by FightingFalcon on Nov 30, 2006 10:14:10 GMT -8
Although I don't believe in Once Saved, Always Saved, I do understand the concept.
Protestants who believe in Once Saved, Always Saved do not think that you can lose your salvation. Hence the title of the belief.
However, in order to "always" be saved, you have to be saved in the first part. Being saved in the Protestant faith (especially ones that really support the concept) is different than what some other Christians might believe. Catholics, clearly, do not believe in the idea. Protestants believe that people who are truly saved have accepted Christ fully and will reject sin in the future. Someone who is "saved" can never go back to being "un-saved" because then they were never saved in the first place. See my point?
I hope I'm making sense here. If you are saved, then you have completely and totally rejected Satan and all evil. You serve the Lord, do good deeds, always put others before you, etc. If you revert back to a sinful lifestyle, then you never truly accepted Christ in the first place.
Personally I think the idea is ridiculous. The perfection that Protestants who believe in Once Saved, Always Saved talk about is impossible. How can anyone truly reject sin? Let's get serious here.
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Post by cataracts on Dec 1, 2006 11:22:46 GMT -8
Both ideas run the same risks though. Get your ticket punched and you are in the clear. I was raised catholic and even as a child thought it odd that a mear mortal could absolve me of my sins (As if a child really has sinned). I stopped being a practicing catholic a long time ago. I never stopped being a christian tho. I've stumbled more than once, and sought His forgiveness, but never intentionally went out to break His law thinking I'd just punch my "Forgiveness Ticket" on sunday. People who belive this are assuming He is a fool, that he doesn't see the truth of what is in your heart. That being said, I am in no way shape or form a biblical schoolar. Just a guy who has read the Bible and knows the truths held therein. :-) SFC, Yes the priest does absolve you from your sins however he is only acting in place of Jesus. He can't forgive anything outside of the confessional booth. Confession or Reconciliation is a Sacrament of our Church. Because it is a sacrament, it is holding a very special place. When a man sins, exactly who is he sinning against? He is sinning against God. How does a man get forgiveness from God? Through the sacrament of reconciliation. You can probably get forgiveness by asking God directly, but how do you know that you are forgiven? It is a teaching of the Catholic Church that a man must be 100% sorry for his sins before God will forgive him. The beauty of the sacrament is that a person does not have to be 100% sorry to be forgiven. When a man leaves the confessional he knows that God has forgiven him. God is not a fool. He knows that we sin every day. Who can stand before Him and know that He has seen everyone of our sins? If a just man falls seven times a day, how often do you thing you and I fall every day? It is not presumpuous to go to confession. Confession can be very humbling and clensing. Cataracts |
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Post by cataracts on Dec 1, 2006 11:35:20 GMT -8
Although I don't believe in Once Saved, Always Saved, I do understand the concept. Protestants who believe in Once Saved, Always Saved do not think that you can lose your salvation. Hence the title of the belief. However, in order to "always" be saved, you have to be saved in the first part. Being saved in the Protestant faith (especially ones that really support the concept) is different than what some other Christians might believe. Catholics, clearly, do not believe in the idea. Protestants believe that people who are truly saved have accepted Christ fully and will reject sin in the future. Someone who is "saved" can never go back to being "un-saved" because then they were never saved in the first place. See my point? I hope I'm making sense here. If you are saved, then you have completely and totally rejected Satan and all evil. You serve the Lord, do good deeds, always put others before you, etc. If you revert back to a sinful lifestyle, then you never truly accepted Christ in the first place. Personally I think the idea is ridiculous. The perfection that Protestants who believe in Once Saved, Always Saved talk about is impossible. How can anyone truly reject sin? Let's get serious here. Fighting Falcon, "Once saved, always saved" has at least one glaring fault or error that simply cannot be overlooked. When the Protestant goes up to the preacher and admits that he wants to be saved, then the preacher tells him "yes my son, you are saved because you have given your heart to God". This means that the individual that came forth was the prime mover in his salvation. You cannot save yourself. Only God can save you. Yet by following the instructions of your preacher, you are now saved. This doesn't sound right at all. I have an acquaintance that is Methodist. He says that he doesn't have to follow the ten Commandments. Why? Because "once saved, always saved". He can now do anything he wants because he is saved. This, to me, is making God out to be a fool. Cataracts |
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Post by FightingFalcon on Dec 1, 2006 15:05:23 GMT -8
Cataracts:
1) Well I disagree with your belief that only God can save. If that were the truth, and that we humans have no control over it, then Hell could never exist. It would be pure evil for God to punish someone who had no control over their salvation. On the contrary, I believe that God will only save those who seek salvation. For example, those who come to God and ask for it.
2) Your Methodist friend clearly does not understand his own doctrine. To be truly Saved, you have to agree to reject sin no more. Any person who has devoted their life to Christ fully would of course abide by the 10 Commandments. Jesus said to go and sin no more. Not "go and sin all you want because it doesn't matter"
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Post by cataracts on Dec 2, 2006 11:16:21 GMT -8
Fighting Falcon,
Possibly we are really agreeing on your #1 point. Don't you think that a man that goes to confession is asking for God's help as well as His forgiveness. Also, please keep in mind that Adam and Eve sinned against God. Heaven was shut off from men until Jesus came on Earth. So what's the difference between me sinning against God and Adam and Eve sinning against God? Not much. This is why He gave us the sacrament of Confession. Before Jesus gave us this sacrament there was no way we could be forgiven. This is why Heaven was closed off for man. Don't you think that Adam and Eve also said many times in their lives, "Please forgive us Lord".
It was nice to hear what you said in your #2 point. What you have said is certainly the truth. You won't find any Methodist that will agree with you. This is a Methodist teaching. Once saved always saved. It is also a typical Protestant belief. Why don't you believe in it? What kind of a Protestant are you?
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Post by FightingFalcon on Dec 3, 2006 16:36:22 GMT -8
Cataracts,
Well I'm in disagreement with your belief that before Jesus, forgiveness was impossible. After the coming of Jesus, acceptance of Him became a requirement for forgiveness but before Him obviously that was not necessary. I do not think that God would be so evil as to send people to Hell simply because Jesus hadn't come yet.
I was a practicing Catholic for about 19 years of my life. For a while I considered myself a Traditional Roman Catholic and even tho I no longer practice, I still reject Vatican II. I stopped belonging to an organized religion because I believe it hinders your ability to search for truth. Not to mention the gross corruption of Jesus' teachings that I see in most organized religion. My religious beliefs most closely align with the Unitarian Universalists but I do not practice.
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Post by cataracts on Dec 4, 2006 11:29:43 GMT -8
Cataracts, Well I'm in disagreement with your belief that before Jesus, forgiveness was impossible. After the coming of Jesus, acceptance of Him became a requirement for forgiveness but before Him obviously that was not necessary. I do not think that God would be so evil as to send people to Hell simply because Jesus hadn't come yet. I was a practicing Catholic for about 19 years of my life. For a while I considered myself a Traditional Roman Catholic and even tho I no longer practice, I still reject Vatican II. I stopped belonging to an organized religion because I believe it hinders your ability to search for truth. Not to mention the gross corruption of Jesus' teachings that I see in most organized religion. My religious beliefs most closely align with the Unitarian Universalists but I do not practice. Fighting Falcon, After Jesus died on the cross, where did He go for the next three days? He went to a place where the dead people went. The dead that were judged worthy of life went to Heaven. Those that were judged as evil stayed there. Before Jesus came, no one went to Heaven. I'm sorry that you have given up your Catholic Faith. I keep getting more and more. It's never ending. I love our Church. Cataracts |
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Post by FightingFalcon on Dec 4, 2006 14:06:37 GMT -8
So for thousands of years, good people had to suffer in Hell simply because Jesus hadn't come yet? Err...that sounds like something Lucifer might do. Not God. Where did Moses and the rest of them go? They had to suffer in Hell for millenia as well?
This is why I can no longer adhere to an organized religion - arguments based off a 2,000 year old book trump Logic. I have nothing against the people who do belong, I just can't understand that mindset anymore.
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Post by cataracts on Dec 6, 2006 2:26:21 GMT -8
Fighting Falcon,
We don't really know what it was like in that place. It's very possible that the ones that were going to Heaven had it quite a bit better. We just don't know. And then on top of that, it is very possible that time did not exist for them.
We'll find out those minor details when we get to Heaven.
Actually the Roman Catholic Religion doesn't just base itself on a 2000 year old book. We also have to take in the many Traditions and the Faith of the Early Church Fathers. Every doctrine of the Catholic Church can be shown to be logical, reasonable, and true.
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