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Post by FightingFalcon on Dec 6, 2006 6:08:06 GMT -8
And this is exactly my point. We don't know. We don't know what God in His mercy decided for these people. And I wouldn't exactly call it a "minor" detail if you had to suffer eternal punishment for thousands of years simply because Christ hadn't come yet.
Like the fact that babies who haven't been Baptized stay in Limbo for eternity? Despite not doing anything wrong themselves?
The Church has made mistakes in the past (e.g. indulgences) - no one is free of the imperfection of man.
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Post by cataracts on Dec 7, 2006 23:02:55 GMT -8
FF,
That is exactly why Jesus came. In the fullness of time at the very right time. Why is that? Because He says so.
If Jesus hadn't come everyone that had died in the last 2000 years would have been in the same place as everyone else. There would have been no hope for Heaven. That's why Jesus is called our Saviour.
As far as babies dying that haven't been baptized: The Church doesn't know what happens to them. The Church trusts in God. Whatever happens to them, He'll decide.
We don't know what those people had to go through in that "place". (The land of the dead). But actually it's no skin off of our nose. We didn't have to go through anything. But we do know something. When we die it will be for etenity.
Cataracts
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Post by FightingFalcon on Dec 8, 2006 6:37:23 GMT -8
It's no skin off our nose? What kind of thinking is that? The suffering of billions doesn't matter because it didn't happen to us? I guess the Holocaust wasn't really a big deal either, was it?
No, a 2000 year old book says so and you believe it.
Why? How do we know this for a fact? You think God will let Himself be ruled by a book? Regardless of what the Bible says, it's very possible that God let people into Heaven before Jesus died.
Why doesn't this logic apply universally? In theory I agree with you. That humans should trust in God and that ultimately, He will decide what happens. Judgments won't be based on the Bible, whose translations we are simply hoping we got correct.
Neither the Church nor anyone else knows what will happen to you at death.
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Post by gibran on Dec 26, 2006 17:40:18 GMT -8
What does one have to do to be saved?
Who decides if you are saved or not?
What does one have to do to then become unsaved?
How can sin cause someone to become unsaved if we all sin and fall short of the glory?
Does a good Father take back the gift He gave the worthy son or daughter?
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Post by cataracts on Jan 14, 2007 23:54:21 GMT -8
Gibran,
1) Read the "Sermon on the Mount"
2) Jesus decides who is saved and who is not saved.
3)To become unsaved commit a mortal sin. There are two types of sins. One which is not to death and the other which is deadly. The deadly ones will put you in Hell.
4) The Roman Catholics have believed from the very start that death of the body is required before a person can be saved or not saved. In other words, there is always hope as long as one is alive. To be saved or unsaved is not possible while you are alive. What you have written is strictly a Protestant invention.
5) A good Father would never take back anything from a "worthy" son or daughter.
Cataracts
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Post by cataracts on Jan 15, 2007 0:05:22 GMT -8
It's no skin off our nose? What kind of thinking is that? The suffering of billions doesn't matter because it didn't happen to us? I guess the Holocaust wasn't really a big deal either, was it? I'm sorry if I sounded crude. Yes it does make a difference if those people before Jesus came spent a long time in "that" place. No, a 2000 year old book says so and you believe it. Why? How do we know this for a fact? You think God will let Himself be ruled by a book? Regardless of what the Bible says, it's very possible that God let people into Heaven before Jesus died. Actually the Book was written as part of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. The Apostles (for the most part) wrote the New Testament. The Apostles also passed on to the Bishops the verbal Revelations of Jesus. Both the Bible and the verbal teachings are part of the Traditions of the Catholic Church. The Bible is just the written part of the Traditions. It came from Jesus. If God saw to it that the Book was written, yes then He will follow it. No one entered Heaven before Jesus came. That's the reason He came. He opened the gates of Heaven for us. Why doesn't this logic apply universally? In theory I agree with you. That humans should trust in God and that ultimately, He will decide what happens. Judgments won't be based on the Bible, whose translations we are simply hoping we got correct. We are not hoping we got the translations correct. We know we got them correct. That's why we have the Magisterium of the Church. The teaching authority. Neither the Church nor anyone else knows what will happen to you at death. This is true. Since eternity is going to be for a long time, walk the narrow, low path. You want Heaven. You don't want Hell. Cataracts |
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Post by FightingFalcon on Jan 15, 2007 8:20:36 GMT -8
Wanting has nothing to do with anything. Everyone gets what they deserve through hard work - what you want is really inconsequential.
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Post by cataracts on May 1, 2007 21:34:14 GMT -8
FF,
If you want something bad enough you'll will work to get it. I do believe everyone gets what they deserve because God is Just. Hopefully He'll treat me with mercy.
You say you were Catholic for 19 years..What's the real reason you quit? You don't have to answer this one. It's rhetorical for me, but not for you.
Cataracts
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Post by FightingFalcon on May 9, 2007 7:23:41 GMT -8
Hrm....all I can say is that I've changed a lot since I wrote in this thread last.
The reasons why I "quit" Catholicism, Christianity and religion altogether (I am now a very strong Atheist), would take days to explain.
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Post by Far Rider on May 11, 2007 18:50:10 GMT -8
I can explain it in a few words - you're too self centered to be anything but an atheist - I've watched it happen.
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Post by FightingFalcon on May 11, 2007 19:01:44 GMT -8
Hey Mike - I'm glad to see you're still around. I hope you're doing OK.
I'm not going to lie, that's certainly one of the reasons. I am unapologetically selfish. I refuse to kneel before anyone or anything - certainly not a fairy tale god.
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Post by Far Rider on May 11, 2007 19:23:26 GMT -8
Well, then, I won't lie, either.
I'd like to say everybody goes through a phase like this in their lives. I did, but it was because of too much turbulence in my teen years, like the death of my mother, etc.
You don't have that excuse. I have known kids who went through worse than I did and ended up being the kind of men I look up to.
But some of us just have to learn the hard way, whether it's riding a bike or whether it's living your life.
I lived long enough to realize the value of relationships. Jesus was all about that, but he was talking about real relationships, not the touchy feely bullshit most people give you.
Here's hoping you eventually know what he meant.
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Post by FightingFalcon on May 12, 2007 7:11:59 GMT -8
You're right - nothing traumatic happened to me. I didn't have a death in the family, a stressful period, etc. Nor did I ever claim to have one.
You use the word excuse like I don't have a legitimate reason for not believing. As if the complete lack of proof of the existence of god wasn't proof enough.
As for relationships - I have friends and family that I love and am beyond loyal to. I would do anything for any one of them. I've spent 4 years in ROTC with some of my friends and made extremely close relationships. We're about to become 2nd Lts and I would give up my life for them, if necessary.
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Post by Far Rider on May 12, 2007 12:38:18 GMT -8
We're about to become 2nd Lts and I would give up my life for them, if necessary. Oh, I'll bet... |
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Post by cataracts on May 20, 2007 5:38:24 GMT -8
FF,
Do you know what the major reason is that people leave the Catholic Church?
It is usually (almost always) of a sexual nature. Our Church makes no bones about what is licit and illicit when it comes to sex. The Catholic that wants to leave is doing so because there is something he wants and the Church is telling him "no".
This can also be applied to Martin Luther. After leaving the Church he married. (A nun).
Cataracts
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