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Post by AmericanPride on May 20, 2006 22:05:52 GMT -8
America is not a country of immigrants. It can certainly be said to be a country for immigrants. I was born here. Everyone in my family was born here. Several generations. That means something, doesn't it?
Because it sure as hell does in other countries.
If illegals don't like our mentality of DEFENDING OUR OWN -- they can ismuggle themselves somewhere else.
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Post by bounce on May 21, 2006 2:27:16 GMT -8
Well, you see, now THAT is an excellent point AP.
I heard that in Japan, you're only considered indigent if your family has been there for at least 500 years.
That is a bit extreme, but in WWII, my family (both sides of which immigrated from Germany) fought Hitler. My great grandparents came here about the turn of the century and 40 some-odd years later their kids are headed back to Germany to kill Hitler.
They damn sure didn't consider themselves German immigrants, nor do I. We're freakin' Americans.
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Post by AmericanPride on May 21, 2006 5:02:25 GMT -8
Why isn't Canada a country of immigrants? Or Mexico? I certainly don't think Spanish and Roman Catholicism is native to that region.  |
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Post by cameron on May 21, 2006 7:19:03 GMT -8
Why isn't Canada a country of immigrants? Or Mexico? I certainly don't think Spanish and Roman Catholicism is native to that region. Eh? Canada is a nation of immigrants! Or whatever semantic way you want to phrase it. |
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Post by jfree on May 21, 2006 22:44:25 GMT -8
Ah, but they aren't having any problems as they are surrounded by Americans and we aren't in any hurry to immigrate to that place, no offense, but fuck that.
When Canada starts getting invaded, then they too will have to defend their citizens, their economy and rule of law.
As was posted at THC, I think we should all call those losers in the house and senate, we need to get a list of phone numbers and email addresses and drown them in angry calls. Then we need to pass them on at every board we know of and maybe we can help ourselves and help the legal citizens of this country, you know the ones footing the bill for all this shit.
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Post by cameron on May 22, 2006 3:21:49 GMT -8
Ah, but they aren't having any problems as they are surrounded by Americans and we aren't in any hurry to immigrate to that place, no offense, but fuck that. When Canada starts getting invaded, then they too will have to defend their citizens, their economy and rule of law. As was posted at THC, I think we should all call those losers in the house and senate, we need to get a list of phone numbers and email addresses and drown them in angry calls. Then we need to pass them on at every board we know of and maybe we can help ourselves and help the legal citizens of this country, you know the ones footing the bill for all this shit. We are not being invaded that is overblown over heated rhetoric meant to play on peoples fears and generate anger. Sorry angery mobs are just not my thing. |
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Post by AmericanPride on May 22, 2006 5:32:38 GMT -8
invasion One entry found for invasion. Main Entry: in·va·sion Pronunciation: in-'vA-zh&n Function: noun Etymology: Middle English invasioune, from Middle French invasion, from Late Latin invasion-, invasio, from Latin invadere to invade 1 : an act of invading; especially : incursion of an army for conquest or plunder 2 : the incoming or spread of something usually hurtfulwww.m-w.com/dictionary/invasion |
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Post by cameron on May 22, 2006 9:41:57 GMT -8
invasion One entry found for invasion. Main Entry: in·va·sion Pronunciation: in-'vA-zh&n Function: noun Etymology: Middle English invasioune, from Middle French invasion, from Late Latin invasion-, invasio, from Latin invadere to invade 1 : an act of invading; especially : incursion of an army for conquest or plunder 2 : the incoming or spread of something usually hurtfulwww.m-w.com/dictionary/invasion Their intent is to escape poverty not conquest and plunder. They are in fact not harmfull to our economy they add to it. Like I said overblown rhetoric. |
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Post by jfree on May 22, 2006 10:15:20 GMT -8
Cam, no offense, but you haven't proved a single thing you have stated. I have given you figure from CIS, Mario has given you more, they are a net drain whether you want to believe it or not.
They have no right to come here and demand jobs, social services, or drop anchor babies. No matter where you are coming from, facts are facts. The government and the pres or suppose to be defending and representing the will of the American Citizenry, so saith the constitution and the oath they swear when we elected their sorry asses, defend us from all enemies foreign and domestic.
They just want to escape and not conquest, did you read the freakin signs at the May 1 or any of their illegal marches? Reconquesta, Azatlan, go back to England gringo, MECHA etc and infinitum.
It is not out of fear but indignation at their lack of respect for the citizenry and rule of law of this country, you wanna come here, fine, fill out the fuckin paperwork like everyone else, you jump the border you can fuck off.
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Post by cameron on May 22, 2006 10:59:28 GMT -8
Cam, no offense, but you haven't proved a single thing you have stated. I have given you figure from CIS, Mario has given you more, they are a net drain whether you want to believe it or not. They have no right to come here and demand jobs, social services, or drop anchor babies. No matter where you are coming from, facts are facts. The government and the pres or suppose to be defending and representing the will of the American Citizenry, so saith the constitution and the oath they swear when we elected their sorry asses, defend us from all enemies foreign and domestic. They just want to escape and not conquest, did you read the freakin signs at the May 1 or any of their illegal marches? Reconquesta, Azatlan, go back to England gringo, MECHA etc and infinitum. It is not out of fear but indignation at their lack of respect for the citizenry and rule of law of this country, you wanna come here, fine, fill out the fuckin paperwork like everyone else, you jump the border you can fuck off. No offense taken Jfree I realize my position is a minority position within the conservative camp. I'm not comfortable with what the pro-illegals are proposing either. I think we need to make English the official language of the country and stop catering to those that do not learn English. Part of the problem in my view is that we don't allow them to come here legally. There are jobs here waiting for them once they get here. Our economy is booming, we are for all intents and purposes at full employment. I think this is more of an issue then it should be because of the Multi-culture crowd's dismantling over the past 50 years of the institutions that used to felicitate assimilation. The first public school system in the country was here in New York city. It's purpose was to teach English and civics to immigrant children, that's what it was for. As a condition of being here legally I would like to see a test given in English on American history, fail the test sorry can't stay. I thought Ward Churchill should have been arrested and charged with sedition for what he has said. So if you think I would have a problem rounding up members of the Reconquesta Azatlan crowd and simply deporting them within 24 hours, nope no complaints from me. In fact I would be all for it. I am all for building a fence or wall and securing the border. The fact is the people crossing the border that way have no chance of getting here legally by filling out the paper work and getting on line. The number we allow in legally is not enough to fill the demand for the workers we need. That we need to take market forces into consideration when making policy is to me self evident. We can't prevent drugs from entering max security prisons for crying out loud. I want the borders secured not because I fear losing our culture but because of our true enemies who's threat is in fact existential in nature. You think I've been presented with facts that refute my arguments then please list them for me and I will refute them if I can not I will admit the error of logic and reason. That a population of 250 million is not capable of assimilating 11 million is an absurd notion to me. I have no fear of people escaping poverty by coming here to take part in the American Dream. Sorry I just do not believe our culture is all that fragile. If past history is a guide we are going to end the current wave of immigration for the next couple of generations until the fears that I recognize now are in some sense primordial and very primitive are alleviated. Any way no hard feelings with anyone of my friends here I just disagree respectfully. I do not think the solutions you propose will in fact solve the problems we face as I see them. That they will in fact cause us harm in the long run. |
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Post by bounce on May 22, 2006 11:00:41 GMT -8
Cam, no offense, but you haven't proved a single thing you have stated. I have given you figure from CIS, Mario has given you more, they are a net drain whether you want to believe it or not. They have no right to come here and demand jobs, social services, or drop anchor babies. No matter where you are coming from, facts are facts. The government and the pres or suppose to be defending and representing the will of the American Citizenry, so saith the constitution and the oath they swear when we elected their sorry asses, defend us from all enemies foreign and domestic. They just want to escape and not conquest, did you read the freakin signs at the May 1 or any of their illegal marches? Reconquesta, Azatlan, go back to England gringo, MECHA etc and infinitum. It is not out of fear but indignation at their lack of respect for the citizenry and rule of law of this country, you wanna come here, fine, fill out the fuckin paperwork like everyone else, you jump the border you can fuck off. You are EXACTLY RIGHT jfree and that's why I kinda eased off on the subject. It's less frustrating to explain things to my keyboard!  Look, here's the deal: 1) The big anti-gringo day was a colossal failure on all accounts. They didn't shut ANYTHING down. They didn't prove how much we need them. 2) They only proved we can get along MUCH BETTER WITHOUT THEM!!!! They made themselves too visible to ignore. They proved that they aren't just here for a better life. All they did was show up and call us "Gringos" and "racists." Kinda makes you want to welcome them doesn't it. The smarter move would to just have been to shut the fuck up and go on about things the way they did before. Why didn't they do that? After all, IF ALL THEY WANT IS TO IMPROVE THEIR LIVES... weren't they already doing that??? Yeah, they were. What they want is to turn this into Mexico. They bring their language, they bring their flags, they bring their crime and their diseases and then they presume to tell us that there isn't SHIT WE CAN DO ABOUT IT?  LOL They have a big surprise coming. We're NOT going to roll over for this. In fact, the big anti-Gringo has started a HUGE backlash that will set them back a VERY LONG WAY. Cameron knows that and for some reason it scares the shit out of him. Based on what he has said, I can't figure out why that is. |
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Post by cameron on May 22, 2006 11:22:45 GMT -8
Cameron knows that and for some reason it scares the shit out of him. Based on what he has said, I can't figure out why that is. Fear I don't think so Bounce. In fact I think I was born without that gene. It has gotten me into plenty of trouble in the past. How many people do you know that would stand up to all his Friends, that until that point in time had been his allies on almost every single other issue? I think this issue has caused many to not keep their eye on the real threats facing the nation. My sister once told me I was the most principled person she knew. That's not to say I'm a choir boy far from it, but I stand up for what I honestly believe, should I not do that? You think talking to me has made you feel like this: Well this is how you all have made me feel:  I am not the only conservative to have these thoughts The Conservative Argument for Immigration
By: Adam C · Section: Social Issues
Economic Freedom Includes Labor
Conservative values are grounded in the ideals of freedom and responsibility. As government protects our basic rights, we are responsible for providing for ourselves, raising our children, and taking care of our communities. This fundamental belief in political freedom from restriction has been properly applied to economics in the form of an ideological stance against government incursion into our financial dealings by regulation and taxation. Recently, conservatives have continued to defend free trade and its positive sum gains against a growing anti-globalization crowd. However, in the political discussion of free trade conservatives often focus on trade and finance forgetting about the third pillar of economics, labor. Specifically looking at Mexico, The Economist noted this January that
"The North American Free Trade Agreement.... vastly increased the flow of goods and services between Mexico and its neighbours.... Only labour is left out."
As we engage a globalizing world through international trade and finance, we cannot ignore the underlying pressure on labor to globalize as well. In addition to being the humane and benevolent action, accepting more legal immigrants into America each year is economically the policy most in line with conservative values. The President’s immigration proposal is a step in the right direction; we should embrace the mantle of pro-immigration and increase the level of legal immigration to reflect the real pressure of the global era. Print This Story
Aug 14th, 2004: 18:20:20
Everyone Benefits
Basic economic theory states that distortions to the market always cause a dead-weight loss in overall efficiency. The wall between nation-states continues to be one of the largest impediments to full economic freedom in the world. Thanks to the GATT, WTO, World Bank, and IMF, the barriers have begun to fall much faster in the post-WWII era. International liberalization has brought unprecedented growth to the world and in the past 25 years the number of poor people in the world declined for the first time in history from 1.219 million people to 1.100 million people.* Thus it is no surprise that the doctrine of positive-sum gains has become widespread. When we dismantle barriers between two willing participants in any market, the market is more efficient and both participants benefit. Although positive-sum gains is accepted readily by conservatives with respect to trade and finance, the logically extension to labor is often forgotten. If there is a demand for labor and a willing supply of labor and the government prevents the participants from exchanging their services, the market is less efficient and both sides lose. Looking briefly at Europe and their xenophobia serves as a good reminder of the pitfalls of shutting off a country from willing labor movements. Germany, Italy, Spain, and possibly France face declining, aging populations that will bankrupt their generous welfare states in the next generation. Europe has always succeeded at limiting economic freedom so much that America looks downright Smithian in comparison. Our dynamic economic is due to our embrace of the hardworking immigrants who continue to be one of the most productive and self-reliant segments of our country.
*The World Bank. World Development Indicators 2004. p. 2
Legal is Better Than Illegal, But None is the Worst Possible
A wing of the Republican Party has called for the "closing" of the border with Mexico. This proposal will not stop illegal immigration and will highly inconvenience the cross-border economic ties that have flourished since NAFTA passed. It entirely avoids dealing with the fundamental pressures of labor supply and demand. Most illegal immigrants would prefer to be legal, recognized entities in America. If we would reform our immigration policies to give hope to those waiting their turn to come to America, we could shift the balance of immigrants towards legal citizens or workers as opposed to a large pool of illegal aliens. This would require two major changes to immigration law. First, some form of recognition of the 6-12 million illegal aliens in the country right now. And second, a higher level of legal immigration in the future with a streamlined process that allows interested people the hope that they can follow the legal path without needing to jump through hoops to become legal. Legal immigration is highly preferable to illegal immigration because legal entities have rights and responsibilities that illegal aliens do not. Legal immigrants can participate in civic organizations, acquire car insurance, create entrepreneurial businesses, and pay taxes which relieves the burden on the rest of us.
Conservatives Reward Hard Work
Anyone who is willing to uproot his or her family from their home and from their extended family to take a risk so that their children can grow up with opportunities they never had is the type of person conservatives should be extending a helping hand to. Anyone dedicated to hard work as the primary means for seeking opportunities is an ally of the conservatives. Anyone who relies on their community before relying on their government is the type of citizen conservatives should be greeting with open arms. Most immigrants move to America for the golden opportunity of living in a country that is as economic free as we are. If they were looking for a welfare state Canada and Europe would be attractive options, but most immigrants want to come to America. We continue to be a beacon of the possibility that hard work is rewarded and that a strong worker will receive his or her due. Whether it is working in fields, in restaurants, in cafeterias, or in offices, immigrants often work jobs that are best characterized as semi-skilled or blue collar. These mothers and fathers are raising children with the belief that hard work is the path to success and they serve as a strong example to the next generation that responsibility garners respect. In many ways, today’s immigrants are merely the most recent wave of lower-middle class citizens who have worked hard to provide their children with unlimited opportunities and it will not surprise me to see the second generation immigrants as successful businessmen, doctors, lawyers, professors, and politicians in numbers so large that our stereotype of immigrants and blue collar labor will be outdated.
Immigration Is Good
Conservative Dick Armey sums up his thoughts on immigration:
"I'm hard-pressed to think of a single problem that would be solved by shutting off the supply of willing and eager new Americans."
Immigration has always been an integral part of American history. Now with economic theory backing up our historical understanding of immigration, conservatives should say it bluntly: immigration is good. It reflects an extension of the principles of economic freedom to labor. Similar to trade and finance, freeing labor leads to positive-sum gains. Immigrants gain, America gains. The President’s proposal opens a door for real debate in America about the state of our immigration laws. Reconciling the rule of law with an understanding of the benefits of immigration, Congress needs to allow more legal immigrants into the country. Meanwhile, conservatives need to be steadfast in their support for legal immigrants through their communities, religious institutions, and politics. The refrain should be simple and full of hope: Immigration is good. |
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Post by 101ABN on May 22, 2006 17:52:08 GMT -8
Fuck all that. It's more feelgood nonsense. I'n too tired to fisk it right now Suffice it to say that bullshit is bullshit no matter who says it.  "I'm hard-pressed to think of a single problem that would be solved by shutting off the supply of willing and eager new Americans." Hey Armey! They aren't Americans you stupid bastard. And the issue isn't with immigrants, it's with ILLEGAL immigrants. |
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Post by cameron on May 22, 2006 21:23:20 GMT -8
Fuck all that. It's more feelgood nonsense. I'n too tired to fisk it right now Suffice it to say that bullshit is bullshit no matter who says it. "I'm hard-pressed to think of a single problem that would be solved by shutting off the supply of willing and eager new Americans." Hey Armey! They aren't Americans you stupid bastard. And the issue isn't with immigrants, it's with ILLEGAL immigrants. Who are you fooling yourself? What are you so afraid of? If it's about them being here illegally then make it possible for them to get here legally. |
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Post by 101ABN on May 22, 2006 21:46:53 GMT -8
It's they who have come illegally, it's not up to me to make it possible for them to stay.
Why would I reward lawbreakers?
"Why, thank you for stealing my car. Not to worry, I forgive you. Why don't you just keep it and I'll buy the gas and insurance for you. Oh and let me know when you need tires and an oil change."
Nosir. Not gonna happen.
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