America, You Lost! I win!!!

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What I am bitching about is Bush's pansy-assed approach to this from the beginning.

Had he treated the guy like he should have from the beginning, my courts-martial wouldn't be necessary.

We've hung spies before!

It's the world historical "standard!"

So, I'd choose to shoot him. So what? What's the problem?

[FightingFalcon]

Bounce - if you want to advocate the death penalty, that's one thing

Humiliating and degrading a prisoner is clearly against the law though.

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FDR didn't have a problem with it.

Bush is to the Left of FDR in some ways and THAT pisses me off!

[101ABN]

"What you just advocated would surely result in your courts-martial. "

Courts martial is plural. The singular is court martial, FYI.

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fightingfalcon said:

Bounce - if you want to advocate the death penalty, that's one thing

Humiliating and degrading a prisoner is clearly against the law though.

You have a lot to learn about warfare.

Humiliating and degrading IS THE FIRST THING they do when you're captured.

After THAT they get busy with torture.

You clearly haven't been through SERE. You'll have fun with that. Think of me when you're there.

To my knowledge, spies are NOT protected by the Geneva Convention, AND, BTW, none of our enemies have ever signed that doc to begin with.

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admin said:

"What you just advocated would surely result in your courts-martial. "

Courts martial is plural. The singular is court martial, FYI.

You're right.

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fightingfalcon said:

Bounce - if you want to advocate the death penalty, that's one thing

Humiliating and degrading a prisoner is clearly against the law though.

The death penalty in terms of a "Criminal Justice" thing has no bearing on this.

The guy is guilty of WAR CRIMES as far as I'm concerned and he should have been treated like a war criminal from the beginning.

[FightingFalcon]

Bob you're missing what I'm saying. If your argument is that you want to kill (capital punishment, war crimes, hanging, treason, death penalty, whatever the hell you want to call it), that's one thing. That's a completely different argument. I've got nothing wrong with that although I would argue against the use of the death penalty in this case - or any case.

What I'm talking about is degrading and humiliating a prisoner - that's against the law Bob. Why do you think that several soldiers were sent to prison for doing that exact thing?

As for torture, General Pace himself (or are you going to disagree with him, too?) firmly admitted that we do not torture. I don't give a shit what other countries do. Our military does not. Anyone who does (ESPECIALLY an Officer) will be punished.

I'll do my SERE training probably next year. I will think of you Bob. I'll think of you and any other American military officer who would actually torture people and it will remind me of the Air Force Core Value of Integrity First. I will remember to never become one of those people.

"To my knowledge, spies are NOT protected by the Geneva Convention, AND, BTW, none of our enemies have ever signed that doc to begin with."

I don't believe spies are either. But it would be a stretch to argue that Moussaoui was a spy.

As for other countries not signing the Geneva Convention - who cares? We did. That's all that matters.

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fightingfalcon said:

Bob you're missing what I'm saying. If your argument is that you want to kill (capital punishment, war crimes, hanging, treason, death penalty, whatever the hell you want to call it), that's one thing. That's a completely different argument. I've got nothing wrong with that although I would argue against the use of the death penalty in this case - or any case.

What I'm talking about is degrading and humiliating a prisoner - that's against the law Bob. Why do you think that several soldiers were sent to prison for doing that exact thing?

I do not understand this country's reluctance to fight a WAR to win. War criminals must not be treated harshly. We cannot kill them, we cannot use harsh language, we cannot make them uncomfortable, we cannot make them "feel" bad.

We sent several soldiers to prison because we have gotten soft. We have allowed the lawyers to take over our "tactics." We're not serious about doing what it takes to WIN.

Instead, we've decided to pull punches and try to make nice with the enemy.

That kind of mentality saves the enemy and gets OUR PEOPLE KILLED.

The law it takes to win is THE LAW OF CLUB AND FANG! It's the use of OVERWHELMING military force (which includes the war criminals and enemy combatants) and for some reason the people in this country (including you) are loathe to use it.

As for torture, General Pace himself (or are you going to disagree with him, too?) firmly admitted that we do not torture. I don't give a shit what other countries do. Our military does not. Anyone who does (ESPECIALLY an Officer) will be punished.

The big problem I have with this bullshit is what the word "torture" ahs turned in to.

Now "Torture" means using harsh language, berating, keeping them awake, withholding food and water and crap like that.

NOW, to protest, THEY ARE REFUSING TO EAT!!! What the fuck sense does that make? We have to force feed the fucking idiots so we're not accused of torture!

Jesus man, wake the fuck up!

I'll do my SERE training probably next year. I will think of you Bob. I'll think of you and any other American military officer who would actually torture people and it will remind me of the Air Force Core Value of Integrity First. I will remember to never become one of those people.

And to think, you will be the one on the fucking WALL while I sleep.

That idea gives me pause.

;To my knowledge, spies are NOT protected by the Geneva Convention, AND, BTW, none of our enemies have ever signed that doc to begin with."

I don't believe spies are either. But it would be a stretch to argue that Moussaoui was a spy.

As for other countries not signing the Geneva Convention - who cares? We did. That's all that matters.

You seem to give a big damn about the law as it pertains to coddling criminals, but you don't seem to give a shit about our immigration laws.

Care to "splain" that to me lucy?

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AND, another thing, if Moussaoui wasn't a spy, I'd like to know what you think it takes to be one.

He's over here working covertly, analyzing potential targets, learning to fly, sending information back so as to be able to pull of a sneak attack designed to kill thousands (if not a couple tens of thousands) of Americans.

Not a spy huh?

What's it take to be a spy in your mind, a London Fog trench coat?

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What I proposed to do to Moussaoui is what General Blackjack Pershing is "famed" to have done. It's something we haven't tried yet. Right now, we're too busy trying to keep from offending the enemy it seems to me.

It's time to kiss off the panties and fight this war to win. Bush's approach to this has been VERY disappointing to me.

You know, the only real man I see in the public eye anymore is Sheriff Joe!

[AmericanPride]

Well - just a small little legal technicality here - the signed parties to the Geneva Conventions are not obligated to fulfill its terms in relation to countries and governments that are not signatories. Not a major point here. Just saying. Really.

And yeah - spies can be shot upon capture. That's still legal.

[FightingFalcon]

"I do not understand this country's reluctance to fight a WAR to win. War criminals must not be treated harshly. We cannot kill them, we cannot use harsh language, we cannot make them uncomfortable, we cannot make them "feel" bad."

Who said we can't kill them? So long as they have a fair trial. Or do you want to get rid of that too? How about we just start executing prisoners a la the NAZIs? Would that make you happy Bob?

"We sent several soldiers to prison because we have gotten soft."

I wouldn't have necessarily sent the Enlisted folks to prison but I absolutely would have sent the Officers in charge. We're held to a higher standard than even our fellow Enlisted. There is no excuse why the CO 1) didn't know what was going on or 2) knew about it and didn't stop it. I have no problem with throwing an O-7 in jail.

"Instead, we've decided to pull punches and try to make nice with the enemy."

What you advocate (torturing of POWs, executions, etc.) has never been practiced by the American military. Ever.

"Jesus man, wake the fuck up!"

You seem to be the only person in the military (ex or otherwise) who has actually advocated torture. Funny - you used to tell me that *I* was the one who didn't "see things" the way that the military did.

"And to think, you will be the one on the fucking WALL while I sleep."

To think that you wore the uniform of an organization that has absolutely no tolerance for torture gives me pause.

"You seem to give a big damn about the law as it pertains to coddling criminals, but you don't seem to give a shit about our immigration laws."

I'll respond to this part in the Immigration forum.

"Not a spy huh?"

I'm no lawyer. I don't know the rules on spying but I'm sure that you don't either.

"What I proposed to do to Moussaoui is what General Blackjack Pershing is "famed" to have done"

You mean the same tactic that the British accidentally used in India, leading to the largest rebellion in British-Indian history? Yea, let's do that Bob...........

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepoy_Rebellion

"It's time to kiss off the panties and fight this war to win. Bush's approach to this has been VERY disappointing to me."

You just won't be happy until we are fighting the entire Middle East.

[FightingFalcon]

americanpride2 said:

Well - just a small little legal technicality here - the signed parties to the Geneva Conventions are not obligated to fulfill its terms in relation to countries and governments that are not signatories. Not a major point here. Just saying. Really.

That's like saying we can test nukes in Chile (for example), if they aren't part of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

That makes no sense. We signed the treaty and are obliged to always carry out the terms, no matter who we are dealing with.

[AmericanPride]

James-
Not according to the document.

But it's good PR.