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Post by FightingFalcon on May 6, 2006 11:53:15 GMT -8
There is no Geneva Conventions "document".... It's a series of conventions that was ratified by nearly every country in the world. "As per article 49, 50, 129 and 146 of the Geneva Conventions I, II, III and IV, respectively, all signatory states are required to enact sufficient national law to make grave violations of the Geneva Conventions a punishable criminal offense." Feel free to read the Convention sometime. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Convention"Chapter IX. Repression of Abuses and Infractions Art. 49. The High Contracting Parties undertake to enact any legislation necessary to provide effective penal sanctions for persons committing, or ordering to be committed, any of the grave breaches of the present Convention defined in the following Article. Each High Contracting Party shall be under the obligation to search for persons alleged to have committed, or to have ordered to be committed, such grave breaches, and shall bring such persons, regardless of their nationality, before its own courts. It may also, if it prefers, and in accordance with the provisions of its own legislation, hand such persons over for trial to another High Contracting Party concerned, provided such High Contracting Party has made out a prima facie case. Each High Contracting Party shall take measures necessary for the suppression of all acts contrary to the provisions of the present Convention other than the grave breaches defined in the following Article. In all circumstances, the accused persons shall benefit by safeguards of proper trial and defence, which shall not be less favourable than those provided by Article 105 and those following, of the Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War of 12 August 1949. Art. 50. Grave breaches to which the preceding Article relates shall be those involving any of the following acts, if committed against persons or property protected by the Convention: wilful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments, wilfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health, and extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly."www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/7c4d08d9b287a42141256739003e636b/fe20c3d903ce27e3c125641e004a92f3 |
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Post by bounce on May 6, 2006 12:37:35 GMT -8
"I do not understand this country's reluctance to fight a WAR to win. War criminals must not be treated harshly. We cannot kill them, we cannot use harsh language, we cannot make them uncomfortable, we cannot make them "feel" bad." Who said we can't kill them? So long as they have a fair trial. Or do you want to get rid of that too? How about we just start executing prisoners a la the NAZIs? Would that make you happy Bob? NO! He was tried! He was convicted. My problem is that he was tried by civililians in a civilian court. A military tribunal would have been more appropriate. AND, execution would have been metered out by the military. I am jsut saying that if it was MY DUTY, I wouldn't have blinked. Is there a problem with enjoying watching a war criminal die? That's what he is to me. When you go to SERE, you will see that what you go through in training is ALL AS BAD as what those poor terrorists went through. THAT WAS NOT TORTURE! We do worse than that to our own in training! I happen to know for a fact that in WWII, many enemy trying to surrender (Germany specifically) were shot on sight. It was too late, our guys were too pissed off, they didn't want the burden of having to take them prisoner, etc. I know this because one of the guys who shot some of them was my science teacher in the sixth grade. He lost one of his legs over there. He used to tell us the stories after class. I think one of my points is that I seriously doubt that we could win a war like WWII in this day and age. We've lost our willingness to win. If we need information and the enemy has it, I think we should do whatever it takes to get it. I agree that torture is a "hit and miss' way of retrieving timely information. However, if we need something the enemy has, I think we should use every tool at our disposal to get it. Something tells me Turban Durbin would consider drugging POWs so as to get information "torture" too. How ya gonna define that word? That's the problem I have. It has been bastardized. AND that's another thing... How you "used" to be... I honestly think that the same damn thing has happened to YOU that happens to every single swinging dick we send to Washington to represent us. They become "Liberalized" over time. You are WAY Left of where you used to be. You've been there, what, three years now? How the hell does that shit happen? It's the damndest metamorphasis I have ever seen. AMAZING... Again, it has to do with what you define as "Torture." The way it's defined in the Abu Ghraib trials... Stand by to be fucking tortured at SERE. That shit is kid gloves treatment compared to real life. No, I won't be happy until we stop trying to make fucking friends over there! I DO NOT want to be friends with them! Why do you? Look, I do not mean to shit on you personally, but you are exhibiting traits that REALLY PISS ME THE FUCK OFF in this country. You want to treat everyone fairly, be nice and make friends. That's what Liberals do! From what I can see, you have veered HARD LEFT over the past couple of years. The terrorists will butcher you where you stand if you give them the chance. They'll be happy to video it and send it to your mom too. This country has become weak and it's no wonder to me that we're hated. They're LAUGHING AT US because of this bullshit! Did you ever see the Daniel Pearl video??? You should look it up and watch it on the internet. It will give you some idea of what we really face. Now, one last thing... about Blackjack Pershing's supposed harsh treatment. THE ONLY WAY TO WIN A WAR IS TO WIN IT. Pulling punches will only get more people killed (more or OUR people). You need to get the fuck out of DC man. |
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Post by FightingFalcon on May 6, 2006 15:06:05 GMT -8
"NO! He was tried! He was convicted. My problem is that he was tried by civililians in a civilian court.
A military tribunal would have been more appropriate. AND, execution would have been metered out by the military. I am jsut saying that if it was MY DUTY, I wouldn't have blinked.
Is there a problem with enjoying watching a war criminal die? That's what he is to me."
Again, I have no issue with this. I am not going to debate whether he should have been killed or not. I don't believe in the death penalty and I am not going to get into that argument with you.
"When you go to SERE, you will see that what you go through in training is ALL AS BAD as what those poor terrorists went through.
THAT WAS NOT TORTURE! We do worse than that to our own in training!"
The whole purpose of SERE training is so that our soldiers, if they become POWs, know what they might be put through. Obviously the way that Al-Queda treats our soldiers is not up to the same standards that we treat our POWs. Then again - we aren't a terrorist organization. We are the United States military.
"I happen to know for a fact that in WWII, many enemy trying to surrender (Germany specifically) were shot on sight. It was too late, our guys were too pissed off, they didn't want the burden of having to take them prisoner, etc."
And was that the official government position? No.
Could your teacher have been found guilty of war crimes? Yes.
"I think one of my points is that I seriously doubt that we could win a war like WWII in this day and age."
You act as though torture is the end all and be all. If we don't torture we're going to lose a war. That doesn't make any sense though. If a modern-day WWII broke out, we would easily win no questions asked. I don't think I have to tell you that our military is far superior to anything that any other country could produce.
"I agree that torture is a "hit and miss' way of retrieving timely information. However, if we need something the enemy has, I think we should use every tool at our disposal to get it."
(Un)Fortunately, there is that little thing called the law. You know, the thing that you lecture me about all the time? We signed the Geneva Convention and are obliged to carry out its terms. That means we really have no choice in the matter.
"How ya gonna define that word? That's the problem I have. It has been bastardized."
No physical harm, no humiliation, no degredation, etc.
"You are WAY Left of where you used to be. You've been there, what, three years now?"
All I have to say is, look at my political compass score. I took the test again last week and the only thing that changed was I moved more Libertarian. I still got the same 7.0 or so for the first part.
Trust me when I tell you that I'm much more of a radical than you. Get me started on economics and I will show you just how conservative I am.
I love being called a liberal - especially by conservatives. I just point to my political compass score and laugh. Conservatives can't even recognize their own kind.
The only thing that has changed about me is my opinion on international relations. I've taken several courses on international politics with some really amazing teachers here. I've been able to meet students from all over the world and have tried to understand the world as they see it. I will always put the interests of the Republic first but I don't believe that pissing off our allies is a good strategy for our country.
"I DO NOT want to be friends with them! Why do you?"
Call me crazy, but I truly believe in the American Experiment. I believe in Liberty, Justice, Freedom, etc. for ALL. I believe in holding America to the highest of standards because we represent Truth and Goodness.
I refuse to see an America that tortures. Or deports 11 million people and tells them to fuck off. Or an America that breaks any international law that it doesn't feel like following.
Again, call me crazy. But that's the America I believe in. The shining city on a hill, which is to be an example for all the world to follow. The epitome of Righteousness in the world.
"Look, I do not mean to shit on you personally, but you are exhibiting traits that REALLY PISS ME THE FUCK OFF in this country."
I don't take any of this personally. The only opinion I care about is mine and as I stated before, I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I supported a corrupt America. If America becomes evil and destroys the Experiment, I will have wished that America never existed. If the fire of Liberty goes out in America, all hope for mankind will be lost.
I don't want to be "friends" with people living in the Middle East. I'm not oppose to torture because I care about them or their feelings. It's because of what I feel about America. I could care less about those people.
"You want to treat everyone fairly, be nice and make friends. That's what Liberals do! From what I can see, you have veered HARD LEFT over the past couple of years."
As I said above, I'm not doing it because of them. I'm doing it because of the Republic and what I think of it.
"The terrorists will butcher you where you stand if you give them the chance. They'll be happy to video it and send it to your mom too."
So now I'm defending terrorists? They're evil bastards and should die. When have I said otherwise?
"This country has become weak and it's no wonder to me that we're hated."
We're hated because we think we can do whatever we want and the rest of the world can fuck itself. If you think that the prison scandals in Iraq helped our image in the world, you're wrong....
"Did you ever see the Daniel Pearle video??? You should look it up and watch it on the internet."
I've seen all of those videos. None of that will change my stance on the ideals of the Republic. As I said before, if we become corrupted I will wish that we had never existed. I'd rather see America wiped off the face of the earth than exist in some corrupted state.
"THE ONLY WAY TO WIN A WAR IS TO WIN IT. Pulling punches will only get more people killed (more or OUR people)."
I agree. But if the war consumes our committment to liberty, justice and freedom, I hope that we lose.
"You need to get the fuck out of DC man."
Again - just check out my score.
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Post by bounce on May 7, 2006 5:16:04 GMT -8
Falcon, if you consider this "torture" you need to go work for the ACLU.
You have the mentality of a REMF.
Now as far as this goes:
You believe in holding Americans to the letter of the law, but when it comes to CRIMINALS, you are all for tolerance and understanding.
You call ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS "people?" They're criminals. They're invaders. They are bleeding hard-working Americans dry. AND YOU say you are for "Justice?"
I do NOT see where we have violated international law? What you are doing is bending the meaning of words like "torture" to make America LOOK LIKE the bad guy.
That's what liberals do. That's what the ACLU does. Why not quit what you're doing in ROTC and go into LAW. I really thing you'd be happier over there. You do not need to be on the front line.
The way YOU THINK, there will never be a shining city on the hill. The Islamists want to kill MILLIONS of Americans so they can recreate this country in the image they see. They'd have this place looking like Damascus in no time.
The illegals would have this place looking like Mexico City in no time.
You twist words to make it look like WE are law breakers and then turn a blind eye to THE REAL CRIMINALS in this world.
I have no idea how you consider yourself a conservative. You're not. You're to the left of freakin' FDR!
AND, as far as my old science teacher goes... He was fighting a war. That is something you have no concept of. You have no problem accusing him of being a war criminal and he was fighting and killing an armed, uniformed, identifiable military.
Moussaoui was engaged in an effort to kill thousands of innocent, unarmed and unaware civilians, yet you haven't referred to him as a war criminal. You want tolerance for that scum bag.
I swear to God, you need to be in the ACLU! You'd be right at home over at the D.U. or Kos.
Why do you want to be in the military? It's no place for Michael Kinsley type metrosexuals. I'd rather recruit "Patton" types.
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Post by FightingFalcon on May 7, 2006 5:50:01 GMT -8
"Falcon, if you consider this "torture" you need to go work for the ACLU."
Or the Army, which has the same standards.
"You believe in holding Americans to the letter of the law, but when it comes to CRIMINALS, you are all for tolerance and understanding."
Clearly you can't appreciate the difference between criminals and America. I hold the Republic to the highest of standards because of what it represents.
Again...."tolerance" and "understanding" are parts of being a human being. I don't know about you but I refuse to Heil...
"You call ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS "people?"
How ridiculous of me....
"I do NOT see where we have violated international law? What you are doing is bending the meaning of words like "torture" to make America LOOK LIKE the bad guy."
I don't have to do any bending. There were people in uniform who clearly tortured Iraqis and you're blaming me for wanting to hold them responsible? Those soldiers WERE the bad guys. I don't give a shit about terrorists - I don't hold them to the same standard because they are evil sons of bitches who should rot in the deepest and darkest parts of Hell. But these are American soldiers. If you can't see the fucking difference between them Bounce, I feel bad for you.
Jesus Christ what is wrong with Americans who want our soldiers to act like terrorists. YES there is a reason why we don't do what they do. There is a reason why we fight "with gloves on". There is a reason why we don't pull the same shit that they do. THEY'RE MOTHER FUCKING TERRORISTS!!! Jesus FUCKING Christ why can't you see the difference between the fucking two!!!!!!!
Wow....I rarely get that angry in arguments. I just don't get it. If one more person says that our troops should act like terrorists I'm gonna flip out.
"You do not need to be on the front line."
No, I need to be. So that our military doesn't become some piece of shit rag-tag group that has no respect for the Constitution or the UCMJ anymore.
"The way YOU THINK, there will never be a shining city on the hill."
So be it. I'd rather it not exist at all than exist in some corrupted state.
"You twist words to make it look like WE are law breakers and then turn a blind eye to THE REAL CRIMINALS in this world."
I don't need to address terrorists. Kill them all. I don't care.
"I have no idea how you consider yourself a conservative. You're not. You're to the left of freakin' FDR!"
Again, I'm more radical than you. Deal with it. Just because I don't fit your definition of a conservative doesn't mean that I'm not one.
"AND, as far as my old science teacher goes... He was fighting a war. That is something you have no concept of. You have no problem accusing him of being a war criminal and he was fighting and killing an armed, uniformed, identifiable military."
You're right - I have no problem accusing people of being war criminals for executing POWs. That was a tactic that NAZIs frequently used.
"Moussaoui was engaged in an effort to kill thousands of innocent, unarmed and unaware civilians, yet you haven't referred to him as a war criminal. You want tolerance for that scum bag."
Tolerance? I don't believe in the death penalty and I'm not going to change my opinion. Especially for some piece of shit like Moussaoui. He isn't worth me sacrificing my integrity and personal beliefs.
"I swear to God, you need to be in the ACLU! You'd be right at home over at the D.U. or Kos."
Hahahha. It cracks me up that I'm more conservative than you and you're telling ME to go to the DU. I should be telling YOU that.
"Why do you want to be in the military?"
To defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC.
"I'd rather recruit "Patton" types."
And what happened to Patton? Meanwhile, what happened to his "metrosexual" boss, Bradley? Exactly.
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Post by bounce on May 7, 2006 6:43:00 GMT -8
Like I said, you have a basic problem with enemy identification.
I really do NOT want you watching my back. If I had to go to war, I'd rather go alone.
Was it Patton that said he'd rather have a Panzer Division out in front of him that a French Division behind him?
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Post by FightingFalcon on May 7, 2006 6:52:36 GMT -8
"If I had to go to war, I'd rather go alone."
If you made any of the comments that you did here in public, you would have been kicked out of the military so fast.
There is no place in the Air Force for people who don't respect the UCMJ and the Geneva Convention. People like that might make it to Captain (then again, who doesn't?) but they wouldn't get promoted above that.
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Post by bounce on May 7, 2006 6:59:04 GMT -8
"If I had to go to war, I'd rather go alone." If you made any of the comments that you did here in public, you would have been kicked out of the military so fast. There is no place in the Air Force for people who don't respect the UCMJ and the Geneva Convention. People like that might make it to Captain (then again, who doesn't?) but they wouldn't get promoted above that. When I was in the military we loved America and were willing to protect this country. Judging from your attitudes, I see that has changed dramatically. In your liberalized cranium. America and Americans are the problem! You need to read Mario's post (that Peggy Noonan article). It fits YOU to a tee. |
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Post by AmericanPride on May 7, 2006 8:21:44 GMT -8
James- Uh - yeah - it is a document. Evident by the fact that you just cited it. It's not a verbal agreement. Politicians need something tangible to sign.  Part I Article 2 In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peace time, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties... Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof. So - actually - what protects Al-Qeada and other scumbags isn't the Geneva Convention(s). It's our good decency. |
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Post by bounce on May 7, 2006 8:29:40 GMT -8
This is the result of Moussaoui's handiwork. This is a crime against humanity. It is a war crime. It is mass-murder. Airplanes were turned into WMD. It is NOT something we should hand over to our criminal-coddling judicial system. I quite literally cannot believe what I heard out of the jury. "Moussaoui had an unhappy childhood so we're going to sentence him to 'life.'"  These people are noncombatants. All they did was to go to work one day. They were minding their own business and trying to take care of their families. Then, suddenly, before the coffee break, they were offered the choice between burning alive and jumping out a 100 story building. You have two minutes... time's up! That's the choice Moussaoui offered THEM. AND NOW, our own citizens struggle to understand Moussaoui's upbringing??? It is beyond absurd! |
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Post by tankcommander on May 7, 2006 8:37:01 GMT -8
bounce,
I've read this whole thread, I like the way you think man!
"We're going to use their living guts to grease the treads of our tanks"
George S. Patton
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Post by bounce on May 7, 2006 8:47:46 GMT -8
bounce, I've read this whole thread, I like the way you think man! "We're going to use their living guts to grease the treads of our tanks" George S. Patton Well, I fear 101 is right. With people like Falcon in our military and people like the jury in our own population... It doesn't look good for us as a nation. The only real man I can think of in the public eye is Sheriff Joe and the ACLU is trying to shut HIM down. The Pattons are gone. Now all we have are a bunch of pencil-neck Michael Kinsley geeks. We can't grease the treads of our tanks with their guts. We can't even use harsh language! After all, if we offend them they might REALLY get mad at us, and, as Falcon would have you believe, everything is really all our fault anyway (all those international crimes we've committed you know). You know, the thing that really pisses me off is that we already have the results of this line of thinking! Just look at France! This bullshit DOES NOT WORK! We already know that! Yet, this country seems bound and determined to plunge down that dead-end road. I don't get it. |
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Post by FightingFalcon on May 7, 2006 10:37:25 GMT -8
"With people like Falcon in our military and people like the jury in our own population..."
Did you know anyone who died on 11 September, Bob? Because I knew several people who were murdered that day.
Go fuck yourself.
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Post by bounce on May 7, 2006 11:10:53 GMT -8
"With people like Falcon in our military and people like the jury in our own population..." Did you know anyone who died on 11 September, Bob? Because I knew several people who were murdered that day. Go fuck yourself. You KNOW people who died on 9-11??? Unbelievable! I seem to have a bigger give a damn about your friends than you do - which is another reason I wouldn't want you watching my back. "Murdered" you say? You (and virtually every other liberal I have heard express their attitude on this issue) have a SERIOUSLY SCREWED UP WAY of treating the people who instigated it. You say it's a "stretch" to call Moussaoui a "spy" and you are against the death penalty for him. He's a war criminal, a mass-murderer, he planned the use of WMD against innocent Americans (some of whom you say you knew) and you'd just throw him in jail - you know, the same treatment you'd give US servicemembers who put women's panties or a leash on a terrorist dog. I'd bet the people who you knew (that died on 9-11) would be the ones telling YOU to go fuck yourself. But then again, most of those people were liberals, so who knows. They may very well agree with you. You have the gall to wrap yourself in the Constitution and the UCMJ and then NOT ONLY turn a blind eye to criminal activity in this country, but to engage in law-breaking activities YOURSELF! You want to be taken seriously as a commissioned officer? You want to get into "security?" Why is that? Is it so that when YOU get busted, maybe they'll give you a break? Or, is it so that you can decide which laws you choose to recognize and which ones you choose to ignore? Are YOU WILLING to throw someone in JAIL for possession? If so, are you willing to go turn YOURSELF IN RIGHT NOW? If not, why should you be entrusted with security? (Bounce shaking head in disbelief) |
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Post by FightingFalcon on May 7, 2006 11:58:25 GMT -8
"I seem to have a bigger give a damn about your friends than you do - which is another reason I wouldn't want you watching my back."
Don't ever question my hatred of Al-Queda. I'm going to say that only once Bob.
"You (and virtually every other liberal I have heard express their attitude on this issue) have a SERIOUSLY SCREWED UP WAY of treating the people who instigated it."
I honestly feel like I'm banging my head against a wall. I'm all for killing terrorists. One thing I will NOT do is kill someone in a non-combat enviornment, e.g. POW or someone who has been arrested. I don't believe in the death penalty. I believe that, outside of a Just War, no one has the right to take another person's life. That right is reserved for God alone. My objection to the death penalty comes from my Catholic religion. And we all know what a bastion of liberalism the Catholic Church is....
"You say it's a "stretch" to call Moussaoui a "spy" and you are against the death penalty for him. "
I'm against the death penalty for anyone. Got that? Anyone. OBL, Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, etc. You and I have no right to take their lives if they surrender. There are two "people" in this world who's opinion I care about - 1) mine, 2) God's. I don't care if you think I'm a liberal Bob. Or if the USAF kicks me out for being "a liberal". It's certainly better than spending an eternity in Hell.
"He's a war criminal, a mass-murderer, he planned the use of WMD against innocent Americans (some of whom you say you knew) and you'd just throw him in jail - you know, the same treatment you'd give US servicemembers who put women's panties or a leash on a terrorist dog. "
No, I mean the servicemembers who electrocuted the genitals of inmates. That's what I'm talking about.
"I'd bet the people who you knew (that died on 9-11) would be the ones telling YOU to go fuck yourself. But then again, most of those people were liberals, so who knows. They may very well agree with you."
See above about who's opinion I care about.
"You have the gall to wrap yourself in the Constitution and the UCMJ and then NOT ONLY turn a blind eye to criminal activity in this country, but to engage in law-breaking activities YOURSELF!"
See my other post in the other thread. You claim that I engage in law-breaking activities? As I said there, drug test me any day of the week Bob. You have no idea what you're talking about.
"Are YOU WILLING to throw someone in JAIL for possession?"
That's the law, isn't it? I think abortion is the most evil thing in the world but I don't go around killing doctors, do I?
"If so, are you willing to go turn YOURSELF IN RIGHT NOW?"
For?
"If not, why should you be entrusted with security?"
To protect the Constitution from people like you.
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