America, You Lost! I win!!!

[MARIO]

Do you know what the single greatest achievement in the WoT has been? The CAPTURE of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Although I would agree that a dead terrorist is better than one who is running around, the ideal situation would be for them to be captured. Terrorists are no good to us when they're dead.

James, what do you mean "terrorists are no good to us when they're dead"

Khalid Mohammed should be executed.


If they're known terrorists - sure. Like the car that we blew up in Yemen a few years ago. That's fine with me. But if they're in the process of surrendering or already captured, you cannot kill them. Unless they have a trial and are sentenced to death. Killing POWs is just something that we do not do here in America....

Listen, we know these people don't "surrender."

They need be shot dead on the battlefield. There's no getting aroun d it. It JUST HAS to happen.

A trial?? What are they, common criminals? These animals are ruthless killers. They need to be killed in combat or given a swift execution after short military tribunals.


I fail to see the connection between combat and the death penalty. In fact, there is none. How does my opposition to the death penalty affect my ability to kill terrorists who are trying to kill me? It doesn't.

James, I was referring to your statement on those terrorists "surrendering." You can't trust these animals. Vacillation will only get you or your fellow soldier shot or killed.

And the death penalty is legal in many parts of this country, BY LAW!

Your opposition to the death penalty is irrelevant.


Everyone loves Patton but they refuse to acknowledge what happened to him. He was a great general and a patriot but he also ended up his career disgraced and kicked out of the Army. There is a reason for that. The only reason he was ever put in charge of the Third Army is because we needed him. If there was anyone else, Patton would have been replaced. Also, if not for his close personal relationship with Eisenhower, he probably would have been court-martialed during World War II.

His career disgraced? Hardly. He got the job done for the most part.

And maybe I'm going nuts, but as I recall, he and Eisenhower had a very contentious relationship. Patton even advised family and friends he didn't want Eisenhower at his funeral. Moreover, Eisenhower and others feared Patton's return to the United States. They calculated that he could make some genuine strides in politics. Oliver north did a show the other night on FOX regarding this issue. It delved into whether Patton's death was a conspiracy.

And he was never kicked out of the Army.

Now, there were massacres of Italian and German POW's by those under Patton's command. A sergeant and Captain were prosecuted. But I believe only the Sgt. was sentenced to prison.

But this doesn't change the fact that MANY unarmed German and Italian soldiers were shot dead by American forces during WW2.

The thugs we're dealing with today are ten times worse than the Germans and Italians were.

[MARIO]

There is a reason why Patton wasn't given command of an army until Monty completely screwed up the breakout from Normandy. If not for Monty's incompetence, there was no plan for Patton to be used ever again.

Yeah, Eisenhower shared the blame with Monty in that fuck-up.

Personally, I think Eisenhower was jealous of Patton. But that's just my opinion.

[FightingFalcon]

James, what do you mean "terrorists are no good to us when they're dead"

Khalid Mohammed should be executed.

I mean that the information that they hold is extremely valuable to us. Numerous anti-terrorism experts have admitted that the information gained from KSM has led to the capture or death of other Al-Queda members.

Certainly that is better than if we had just shot him on the spot? Or does our blood-lust outweigh common sense here?

Listen, we know these people don't "surrender."

KSM and Ramzi bin-Alsheebi (another important capture in the WoT), surrendered.

A trial?? What are they, common criminals? These animals are ruthless killers. They need to be killed in combat or given a swift execution after short military tribunals.

NAZI leaders were given trials.

James, I was referring to your statement on those terrorists "surrendering." You can't trust these animals. Vacillation will only get you or your fellow soldier shot or killed.

Who am I trusting here? I would never expect a US soldier to put his or her life on the line so that we could capture terrorists alive. And yes, I realize that some terrorists "surrender" but then break out a gun and try to kill our troops. Because of that, I really don't get upset when our soldiers shoot an unarmed terrorist. But if they are clearly trying to surrender (as KSM did), you cannot just shoot them. As I've said before, a captured terrorist is infintely better than a dead terrorist. Don't let your demand for blood get in the way of victory in the WoT. I don't care how many people die so long as we win and justice is served.

Your opposition to the death penalty is irrelevant.

I know - so why bring it up?

And maybe I'm going nuts, but as I recall, he and Eisenhower had a very contentious relationship.

Before WWII, they were childhood friends. After, not so much.

And he was never kicked out of the Army.

He was ordered back to America with no orders. Did Eisenhower have to spell it out?

The thugs we're dealing with today are ten times worse than the Germans and Italians were.

You're joking, right? You've clearly never studied NAZI concentration camps, POW camps or their campaign in Eastern Europe against ethnic minorities.

[MARIO]

You're joking, right? You've clearly never studied NAZI concentration camps, POW camps or their campaign in Eastern Europe against ethnic minorities.

Um, I was referring to German and Italian soldiers in combat roles.

Yes, I've studied all of the Nazi actions in Eastern Europe. I'm well aware of what they did. What's the point?

I don't think any of their disgusting actions rise to the level of barbarism practiced today by the Islamic fanatics.

That said, both obviously represent evil. Nothing more, nothing less.

The enemy we face today is more akin to the Japs during WW2. Now THEY were sick.

[FightingFalcon]

The enemy we face today is more akin to the Japs during WW2. Now THEY were sick.

Raping little girls versus tossing people into ovens.

I really don't care to debate the levels of evil between the two.

[MARIO]

fightingfalcon said:

The enemy we face today is more akin to the Japs during WW2. Now THEY were sick.

Raping little girls versus tossing people into ovens.

I really don't care to debate the levels of evil between the two.

James, the Japs did MORE than just "rape little girls."

My God.

[bounce]

This is fucking laughable! You say:

I mean that the information that they hold is extremely valuable to us. Numerous anti-terrorism experts have admitted that the information gained from KSM has led to the capture or death of other Al-Queda members.

and yet your method of extracting this "valuable" information is what?

Sit around and eat birthday cake - although we wouldn't want to give them a sugar high, now would we. That might be considered TORTURE at Georgetown in this day and age.

I agree that they hold VERY VALUABLE and VERY TIME SENSITIVE information. That makes our urgency and ability to extract said information so important.

I do have one question for you. How the FUCK would you know if a terrorist wanted to surrender?

I can see it now... You, for some reason, find yourself facing a rag-head who appears to point his weapon down. You hold your fire and approach him. As you get within about three feet he blows the BOTH OF YOU to smithereens with a grenade he has under his clothing.

So much for your "compassion."

[MARIO]

Certainly that is better than if we had just shot him on the spot? Or does our blood-lust outweigh common sense here?

Well, he's one of the bigwigs. We go the information. Can we execute him NOW?

KSM and Ramzi bin-Alsheebi (another important capture in the WoT), surrendered.

Now, did they really "surrender"? Or were they captured?

NAZI leaders were given trials.

Yeah, probably a big mistake. Others eluded justice for a while. The Israelis later caught up with them.

In the end, many of them were put to death. Was that a good thing?

Don't let your demand for blood get in the way of victory in the WoT.

My demand for blood??

Killing the enemy is precisely what WILL lead to victory in th War on Terror.

I know - so why bring it up?

I didn't. YOU did. You said that America should abandon the death penalty.

Before WWII, they were childhood friends. After, not so much.


Of course. You said that Eisenhower's close relationship with Patton DURING the war kept Patton in power and saved him from a court-martial. That's just not true.

Later.

[FightingFalcon]

mario said:

fightingfalcon said:

Raping little girls versus tossing people into ovens.

I really don't care to debate the levels of evil between the two.

James, the Japs did MORE than just "rape little girls."

My God.

Yea, I know. My Chinese history class studied the rape of Nanking and I know what they did.

I wasn't making light of the Japanese atrocities. I'm simply saying that I don't really feel like debating the levels of evil between the two. They're both evil.

[bounce]

I have NEVER heard of an al Qaeda member "surrendering."

Yes, we have taken some prisoners, but that was only because they didn't have the wherewithall to go out like a Klingon.

The DO NOT accept the idea of surrender as serving Allah. They're supposed to die and take as many of us with them as they can.

They don't take many prisoners either - none that they don't plan on killing anyway.

You are going to have to get over your problems with death and killing if you're going to take any part in this war.

[FightingFalcon]

and yet your method of extracting this "valuable" information is what?

I never said that I opposed waterboarding or other non-physical methods of gaining information, e.g. sleep deprivation, light/sound disorientation, etc.

I can see it now... You, for some reason, find yourself facing a rag-head who appears to point his weapon down. You hold your fire and approach him. As you get within about three feet he blows the BOTH OF YOU to smithereens with a grenade he has under his clothing.

About a year ago, a video appeared where a Marine shot an unarmed and injured Iraqi because he was afraid of the Iraqi blowing himself up.

Guess what I said about the situation Bob? I said that we shouldn't judge the soldier because we weren't there and that the killing was legitimate due to the tactics used by the enemy.

I still feel the same way today. I am very lenient on soldiers who kill unarmed terrorists due to the fact that their tactics include blowing themselves up. However, I will never change my opinion on killing POWs.

[MARIO]

I'm simply saying that I don't really feel like debating the levels of evil between the two. They're both evil.

Okay. I agree.

[bounce]

I never said that I opposed waterboarding or other non-physical methods of gaining information, e.g. sleep deprivation, light/sound disorientation, etc.

Waterboarding is pretty physical if you ask me. You forcibly strap someone down and make them think they're going to suffocate!

You don't think that's a little "abusive?"

About a year ago, a video appeared where a Marine shot an unarmed and injured Iraqi because he was afraid of the Iraqi blowing himself up.

Guess what I said about the situation Bob? I said that we shouldn't judge the soldier because we weren't there and that the killing was legitimate due to the tactics used by the enemy.

I still feel the same way today. I am very lenient on soldiers who kill unarmed terrorists due to the fact that their tactics include blowing themselves up. However, I will never change my opinion on killing POWs.

If they aren't in custody yet, they're hardly a POW!

[FightingFalcon]

Well, he's one of the bigwigs. We go the information. Can we execute him NOW?

Has he had a trial? Military or otherwise? Then no, we can't. If he is sentenced to death, so be it. I won't support it but I realize that it's the law. I've never advocated breaking the law and I've always tried to explain that I can carry out a law I do not believe in. We do it every day of our lives. I accept abortion even though its the most evil practice in the world, IMHO. That doesn't mean I go kill doctors...

Now, did they really "surrender"? Or were they captured?

I'm sure I could find you examples of terrorists who have surrendered.

In the end, many of them were put to death. Was that a good thing?

Was it a good thing? Who knows. Regardless, I'll never change my opinion that, outside of a combat enviornment, only God has the right to take someone's life.

Killing the enemy is precisely what WILL lead to victory in th War on Terror.

And killing the enemy will be made easier if we KNOW WHERE THEY ARE! Why is this so hard for everyone to understand? Terrorists are useful to us when we can get information out of them. Common sense is staring us in the face and you're refusing to acknowledge it.

I didn't. YOU did. You said that America should abandon the death penalty.

Yea, I did. I brought it up because you claimed that my opposition to the death penalty will affect my ability to kill armed terrorists. It won't.

Take care Mario. Done with finals yet?

[FightingFalcon]

Waterboarding is pretty physical if you ask me. You forcibly strap someone down and make them think they're going to suffocate!

You don't think that's a little "abusive?"

I don't see it as physical toture, humiliation or degredation. You aren't doing any harm to them - just making them think that they are drowning. I see nothing wrong with that.

If they aren't in custody yet, they're hardly a POW!

Which is why I said that I am extremely lenient on soldiers who kill unarmed terrorists.

But killing POWs is something I'll never go for. My religious beliefs are too strong to be changed due to some dirty terrorists.