Ya'll are probably going to hate me...

[FightingFalcon]

But on this issue I have to disagree with probably everyone on here. I am fully behind President Bush's guest worker program. The fact of the matter is that sending every illegal alien back to Mexico is not feasible or practical. In addition, you would destroy the American economy by sending back 11 million cheap workers.

These people want to stay in America and they are proud Americans. The media has way over-hyped the use of Mexican flags at the rallies - the overwhelming majority of people use American flags and are proud to be in this country.

I am in complete agreement that we should do everything in our power to defend the border - but not against immigrants who wish to work in this country. These people represent a vital section of our economy and we cannot do without them. Visas take way too long and should instead be replaced with a guest-worker program. Those seeking to remain in the country should have to wait in the normal line for citizenship.

This is not an amnesty - no one is being awarded citizenship. No one's criminal past will be forgotten. What it is, is simply acknowledging a plain fact. We cannot (and should not) waste billions of dollars finding these people and kicking them out. For conservatives who are always worried about the economy, I can't believe that ya'll want to kick out 11 million workers who are vital to the economy.

I am 100% against illegal immigration and future illegal immigration. However, we must realize that the current situation is broken and must be reformed. A guest worker program is a win-win solution for everyone because immigrants get to remain in this country and we get to document them and collect taxes off of them. Instead of all of their money going to Mexico, we can ensure that some of that money goes to Washington D.C.

Am I missing something here? Is there anything wrong with this program?

Some argue that a plan like this would just reward criminal behavior. While that is true, it is the only solution to the problem. If a guest worker program were to be initiated, America must make it clear that we will no longer tolerate illegal immigration. With a guest worker program in place, the Mexican government would also be forced to stop supporting illegal immigrants from coming into this country.

Everyone wins in a guest worker program. In the other "solutions" (e.g. kick everyone out), the economy suffers, we gain the resentment of all immigrants and we don't solve the problem.

If you respond to this post, feel free to attack my plan. But I simply request that you propose your own plan as well. One that solves all of the current problems, e.g. 1) the immigrants here now, 2) the flow of immigrants into this country, 3) companies relying on cheap Mexican labor.

[jfree]

No, I don't hate you. I even understand some of what you are saying, and it would be easier and cheaper to just take it.

But, we are now being held fiscally hostage by the same persons who broke the law to get here. They now seek to punish us fiscally w/this May Day crap. Think about it, how can we back down now? They have now forced our hands, we cannot be blackmailed into submitting to illegal invaders. They held signs at the protest that said Fuck the law, Open the door or I'll break the window, This is our land, Go home English invaders.

The line has been drawn and there is no going back, if we give in we are gonna be taking it in the ass for the rest of this countries existance. We cannot allow Mecha and all the other Azatlan freaks to get away w/black mailing us.

Any company that is depending on illegal aliens for their workforce is doing so illegally and treating them as slave labor. That cannot be allowed to continue. This country survived before with citizens working the farms and other places, they are just addicted to the adrenaline rush they get to their bottom line by using slave labor.

The first thing we do is establish a guest worker program to accomodate many thousands hispanics, however, only those residing in their country of origin may apply. First to apply at the embassy in your country are the first to come.

Second, no more anchor babies. Any child born in this country after 2000 to illegals is not a citizen.

Third guest worker visa's are immediately void when you commit a crime including helping others into this country. Your spouce may come and your children only.

All illegals are to leave of their own volition at once. Any caught here will be banned from ever entering this country again. Any illegals or resident aliens caught w/ drugs are to be immediately deported and black listed.

Next we need an electric fence backed up by the national guard.

On July 4th, we'll have a contest the first 100,000 illegals to return over the Mexican border will be given work visa's conditional on them entering legally, going thru all the paperwork and they have to tutor those who want to come here on American laws and customs.

No resident alien or guest worker may in any way associate w/Mecha or any Azatlan organizations.

[MARIO]

These people want to stay in America and they are proud Americans. The media has way over-hyped the use of Mexican flags at the rallies - the overwhelming majority of people use American flags and are proud to be in this country.

Okay, James, here is where you got my blood boiling.

I didn't see much of anything about the Mexican flags at these rallies from the news media on tv or in the papers. Instead I had to look at several websites which covered these rallies.

How could you say that?

Did you not see the pictures of people from New York, Dallas, California, etc.?

I'm sorry, but these invaders thing WE OWE THEM SOMETHING. They want to re-conquer the American Southwest. We had better fucking wake up before it's too late.

These people are NOT proud Americans. They're porud invaders and many are wearing Che Guevara t-shirts and waving Mexican flags at these rallies.

That said, I do not support removing ALL of these people. I support something like the plan that was talked about in Congress. Those who have been here for so and so years get to stay. Those who haven't been here for so and so long are deported.

Unfortunately, I think that's the best we can do at this point.

Later James.

[101ABN]

"The fact of the matter is that sending every illegal alien back to Mexico is not feasible or practical. In addition, you would destroy the American economy by sending back 11 million cheap workers.

Balderdash!

"These people want to stay in America and they are proud Americans. The media has way over-hyped the use of Mexican flags at the rallies - the overwhelming majority of people use American flags and are proud to be in this country. "

Nonsense!

Sorry Falcon, but you're dead wrong on this one. A few of us are old enough to remember the Amnest granted during the Reagan adminisrtration that led to the situation that we have
now.

"America must make it clear that we will no longer tolerate illegal immigration. "

We did that in '85. See how well it worked? Nosir! No Amnesty. None at all!

The plan?

1. Build the fence. Do it now.

2. Arrest and deport all illegals whenever there is a police contact. Maybe you can't deport them all at once but you can do it one at a time.

3. Enforce the laws already on the books, prosecuting employers who knowingly hire illegals. Understand this. There is NO job that americans won't do if the wages are high enough. Want proof? Who did all this work when they they didn't have 12 million illegals to undercut poor Americans?

4. Immediately stop all benefits, entitlemnets, and services, with the exception of emergency medical services.

5. Issue an executive order that prevents US banks from opening accounts or making loans to anyone who cannot prove legal residence.

If lettuce goes to five bucks a head, who gives a shit.

I want my country back.

[FightingFalcon]

"They have now forced our hands, we cannot be blackmailed into submitting to illegal invaders. They held signs at the protest that said Fuck the law, Open the door or I'll break the window, This is our land, Go home English invaders. "

I agree that they are forcing our hand. But we kind of deserve it for not having an effective immigration policy for the longest time.

"Any company that is depending on illegal aliens for their workforce is doing so illegally and treating them as slave labor. That cannot be allowed to continue."

I am not prepared to suffer the economic shock of the loss of 11 million vital workers in this economy. It shouldn't be allowed to continue - that's why they should be documented but allowed to stay.

"Second, no more anchor babies. Any child born in this country after 2000 to illegals is not a citizen. "

Hrm...citizenship is a touchy subject. Not quite sure how I'd solve that one.

"Third guest worker visa's are immediately void when you commit a crime including helping others into this country. Your spouce may come and your children only. "

I wouldn't argue against that.

"All illegals are to leave of their own volition at once. Any caught here will be banned from ever entering this country again."

This is where your plan falls apart. First off, no illegal is going to leave. They love this country and our economic wealth. Secondly, what do you do with illegals? Just drop them off at the border? I'm sorry but that's a little cold-hearted, even for me.

"Next we need an electric fence backed up by the national guard."

National Guard, yes. Electric fence? That might be a bit overboard.

[FightingFalcon]

"Did you not see the pictures of people from New York, Dallas, California, etc.?"

Mario, everyone has an agenda. Who knows what pictures they decided to put up there and who knows where they're coming from. All I know is that from what I've seen and heard, these people seem to love this country. I saw the rally here in D.C. and I saw nothing but American flags.

"I'm sorry, but these invaders thing WE OWE THEM SOMETHING. They want to re-conquer the American Southwest. We had better fucking wake up before it's too late."

Of course the radicals believe that. But there is a reason why these people LEAVE Mexico. They know it fucking sucks....

"They're porud invaders and many are wearing Che Guevara t-shirts"

You'd be surprised how many American students wear those same t-shirts....

"Those who have been here for so and so years get to stay. Those who haven't been here for so and so long are deported."

They're undocumented workers. How do you suppose that we'd figure out when they got here? That's a program that would require tons of manpower that could be spent on something just a tad more important, don't you think? Like hunting dangerous criminals or looking for terrorists....

Hope all is well Mario. Good luck with finals.

[FightingFalcon]

"Balderdash!"

Come on 101. It's just not practical. How do you "send back" these people? Drive to the border and kick them out? That's just plain evil. I'm a pretty cold-hearted bastard but I'm not evil.

"Sorry Falcon, but you're dead wrong on this one. A few of us are old enough to remember the Amnest granted during the Reagan adminisrtration that led to the situation that we have
now."

I'll hafta read more about that. I'm not going to comment on something that I don't know anything about.

"1. Build the fence. Do it now."

I'm sorry - this just brings up memories of the Berlin Wall and the current security fence in Israel.

"2. Arrest and deport all illegals whenever there is a police contact. Maybe you can't deport them all at once but you can do it one at a time."

To where? Just kick them out of a moving bus?

"Enforce the laws already on the books, prosecuting employers who knowingly hire illegals. Understand this. There is NO job that americans won't do if the wages are high enough. Want proof? Who did all this work when they they didn't have 12 million illegals to undercut poor Americans?"

Why punish companies for simply doing what economically makes sense? There are people willing to do these jobs for nearly no pay. Don't blame companies for simply taking advantage of the economic situation in this country. That's why minimum wages are BS - people are willing to do the work so don't blame the company.

"4. Immediately stop all benefits, entitlemnets, and services, with the exception of emergency medical services."

Completely agree here.

"5. Issue an executive order that prevents US banks from opening accounts or making loans to anyone who cannot prove legal residence."

I'll hafta think about this one.

"I want my country back."

And they just want to be a legal part of it.

[101ABN]

"I agree that they are forcing our hand. But we kind of deserve it for not having an effective immigration policy for the longest time. "

Right! Blame the US. THEY broke the law. All I'm saying is enforce the law.

"I am not prepared to suffer the economic shock of the loss of 11 million vital workers in this economy. It shouldn't be allowed to continue - that's why they should be documented but allowed to stay."

Bullshit! You're not going to suffer anything. And all 11 million of them are certaily NOT working.

"Hrm...citizenship is a touchy subject. Not quite sure how I'd solve that one."

She already told you how to solve it. No more birthright citizenship unless at least one parent is a legal resident.

"First off, no illegal is going to leave."

Nonsense, cut off the jobs and the entitlements and they'll self-deport.

"They love this country." "That would be fucking laughable is it weren't so pathetic, You've bought the liberal big lie here, hook, line, and sinker.

"memories of the Berlin Wall ." Another popular liberal big lie. I doubt you have any memories at all of the Berlin wall, so please take note: The Berlin Wall was built to keep people IN. Big difference.

Also please note the decline in frequency of suicide bombings in Israel since the wall was erected.

(Deport) "To where?

To the nearest border with their home country, over the line and out you go.

"Drive to the border and kick them out?"

Yes! Exactly.

"Why punish companies for simply doing what economically makes sense?"

Apply that logic to bank robbery or embezzlement. You punish people for breaking the law. Yes it's that simple.

"There are people willing to do these jobs for nearly no pay."

Following that ;ogic, perhaps we should reinstitute slavery?

"And they just want to be a legal part of it."

The Big Lie again.

If they want to do that, they need ot go home, get in line and do it the right way.

They don't want to assimilate, they want to bring Mexico here. The Mexican flags were everywhere until their communist handlers and the Lation radio stations spread the word to fly the US flag. If you gave them the choice which one do yoou think they'd fly? Their allegiance is to Mexico.

Deportación, Sí! Amnistía, No!

[Sailor]

Sorry James but I agree with 101 wholeheartedly on this one.

Why should we reward those whose very act in coming here was a violation of our laws?

I agree with 101, at the first contact with police immigration status should be checked and if found to be here illegally, either by illegal entry as from Mexico or by expired visa, shipped home pronto.

As things stand now, or just recently, even when illegal immigration status is noted in a court of law deportation is rarely if ever ordered unless the other charges are sufficiently serious. James, this is something I have witnessed myself. In the case I witnessed the judge decided to turn the illegal loose.

The only real problem with shipping Mexicans back to Mexico would be if Fox closed the border to returns, which he can do.

The "fence." Build the fucking thing - NOW!

If any of these "immigrants" really want to live here they can bloody well follow the law like the legal immigrants of every other country. Why the hell should they be rewarded for jumping the line or making up their own rules?

Deportación, Sí! Amnistía, No!

[MARIO]

And they just want to be a legal part of it.


I couldn't disagree more.

They're DEMANDING recognition, and many of them think they OWN the Southwest. They're basically telling you and me that we don't belong here.

These people are not interested in becoming American.

I live here in NYC, James. Trust me, they think we owe them something. And those protests were despicable, be it in Los Angeles, NYC, Dallas, etc.

I'm convinced they're organizing a takeover.

Here's an email I got from "Bounce":


HISPANIC LEADERS SPEAK OUT!

Augustin Cebada, Brown Berets; "Go back to Boston! Go back to Plymouth Rock, Pilgrims! Get out! We are the future. You are old and tired. Go on. We have beaten you. Leave like beaten rats. You old white people. It is your duty to die. Through love of having children, we are going to take over.

Richard Alatorre, Los Angeles City Council. "They're afraid we're going to take over the governmental institutions and other institutions. They're right. We will take them over. We are here to stay ."

Excelsior, the national newspaper of Mexico, "The American Southwest seems to be slowly returning to the jurisdiction of Mexico without firing a single shot."

Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez, University of Texas: "We have an aging white America. They are not making babies. They are dying. The explosion is in our population. I love it. They are shitting in their pants with fear. I love it."

Art Torres, Chairman of the California Democratic Party, "Remember 187--proposition to deny taxpayer funds for services to non-citizens--was the last gasp of white America in California."

Gloria Molina, Los Angeles County Supervisor, "We are politicizing every single one of these new citizens that are becoming citizens of this country. I gotta tell you that a lot of people are saying, "I'm going to go out there and vote because I want to pay them back."

Mario Obledo, California Coalition of Hispanic Organizations and California State Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare under Governor Jerry Brown, also awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by President Bill Clinton, "California is going to be a Hispanic state. Anyone who doesn't like it should leave."

Jose Pescador Osuna, Mexican Consul General , "We are practicing 'La Reconquista' in California."


Professor Fernando Guerra, Loyola Marymount University: "We need to avoid a white backlash by using codes understood by Latinos . . . "

Are these just the words of a few extremists? Consider that we could fill up many pages with such quotes. Also, consider that these are mainstream Mexican leaders.

THE U.S. VS MEXICO:

On February 15, 1998, the U.S. and Mexican soccer teams met at the Los Angeles Coliseum. The crowd was overwhelmingly pro-Mexican even though most lived in this country. They booed during the National Anthem and U.S. flags were held upside down. As the match progressed, supporters of the U.S. team were insulted, pelted with projectiles, punched and spat upon. Beer and trash were thrown at the U.S. players before and after the match. The coach of the U.S. team, Steve Sampson said, "This was the most painful experience I have ever had in this profession."

Did you know that immigrants from Mexico and other non-European countries can come to this country and get preferences in jobs, education, and government contracts? It's called affirmative action or racial privilege. The Emperor of Japan or the President of Mexico could migrate here and immediately be eligible for special rights unavailable for Americans of European descent. Recently, a vote was taken in the U.S. Congress to end this practice. It was defeated. Every single Democratic senator except Ernest Hollings voted to maintain special privileges for Hispanic, Asian and African immigrants. They were joined by thirteen Republicans. Bill Clinton and Al Gore have repeatedly stated that they believe that massive immigration from countries like Mexico is good. They have also backed special privileges for these immigrants.

Corporate America has signed on to the idea that minorities and third world immigrants should get special, privileged status. Some examples are Exxon, Texaco, Merrill Lynch, Boeing, Paine Weber, Starbucks and many more.

DID YOU KNOW?
Did you know that Mexico regularly intercedes on the side of the defense in criminal cases involving Mexican nationals? Did you know that Mexico has NEVER extradited a Mexican national accused of murder in the U.S. in spite of agreements to do so? According to the L.A. Times, Orange County, California is home to 275 gangs with 17,000 members, 98% of which are Mexican and Asian. How's your county doing?

According to a New York Times article dated May 19, 1994, 20 years after the great influx of legal immigrants from Southeast Asia, 30% are still on welfare compared to 8% of households nationwide. A Wall Street Journal editorial dated December 5, 1994 quotes law enforcement officials as stating that Asian mobsters are the "greatest criminal challenge the country faces." Not bad for a group that is still under 5% of the population.

Is education important to you? Here are the words of a teacher who spent over 20 years in the Los Angeles school system. "Imagine teachers in classes containing 30-40 students of widely varying attention spans and motivation, many of whom aren't fluent in English. Educators seek learning materials likely to reach the majority of students and that means fewer words and math problems and more pictures and multicultural references."

WHEN I WAS YOUNG:
When I was y oung, I remember hearing about the immigrants that came through Ellis Island. They wanted to learn English. They wanted to breath free. They wanted to become Americans. Now too many immigrants come here with demands. They demand to be taught in their own language. They demand special privileges--affirmative action. They demand ethnic studies that glorify their culture.

[AmericanPride]

We should have annexed Mexico when we had the chance.

The more they push and the more our leaders do nothing - the greater the backlash will be.

I'll just sit back and wait.

[MARIO]

Mario, everyone has an agenda. Who knows what pictures they decided to put up there and who knows where they're coming from.

James, we KNOW what their agenda is, and it isn't legal immigration or the desire to 'become an American.'

My agenda is simple: They either follow the law or get out. I'm tired of this invasion of our country. And I remember you used to have some pretty strong views in opposition to illegal aliens.

James, just look at the Mexican youth in our schools and what they think of America. This is disgusting.

www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/pt/slideshows/2006/03/protest2_2006/


All I know is that from what I've seen and heard, these people seem to love this country. I saw the rally here in D.C. and I saw nothing but American flags.

Most of them don't love this country. And the organizers are hanging out American flags at these rallies.

It's a repeat of what happened in California with Prop. 187. My professor for one of my classes recently told me that she worked on Prop. 187. She was involved in that whole thing. And she remembers public support waned dramatically for the illegals after the disgusting rallies out there and the waving of the Mexican Flag, etc.


But there is a reason why these people LEAVE Mexico. They know it fucking sucks....

Yeah, of course they know that. Yet they still hold up that Mexican flag with pride in OUR COUNTRY. They obviously have no interest in becoming Americans.

If we don't stem the tide of this invasion, living in our own country is going to 'fucking suck' one of the days, too.


You'd be surprised how many American students wear those same t-shirts....

Yeah, they're also a bunch of assholes. They aren't happy with being Americans to begin with.


They're undocumented workers. How do you suppose that we'd figure out when they got here? That's a program that would require tons of manpower that could be spent on something just a tad more important, don't you think? Like hunting dangerous criminals or looking for terrorists....

Undocumented? What is that supposed to mean, anyway?

From Thomas Sowell:

We can't even call illegal immigrants "illegal immigrants." The politically correct evasion is "undocumented workers."

Do American citizens go around carrying documents with them when they work or apply for work? Most Americans are undocumented workers but they are not illegal immigrants. There is a difference.

The Bush administration is pushing a program to legalize "guest workers." But what is a guest? Someone you have invited. People who force their way into your home without your permission are called gate crashers. If truth-in-packaging laws applied to politics, the Bush guest worker program would have to be called a "gate-crasher worker" program. The President's proposal would solve the problem of illegal immigration by legalizing it after the fact.

We could solve the problem of all illegal activity anywhere by legalizing it. Why use this approach only with immigration? Why should any of us pay a speeding ticket if immigration scofflaws are legalized after the fact for committing a federal crime?


Dangerous criminals?

James, they ARE dangerous criminals!

"Those who obscure the distinction between legal and illegal immigrants overlook the huge burden illegals impose by their disproportionate criminality. As Heather MacDonald has discovered, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for murder in Los Angeles target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants are for illegals. A California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that the infamous 18th Street Gang (20,000 strong) is at least 60 percent illegal."--Mona Charen


As for how we find these illegals, here is an excerpt from the articleon those Illegal alien and employer arrests a couple weeks ago:

Federal authorities checked a sample of 5,800 IFCO employee records last year and found that 53 percent had faulty Social Security numbers, an Immigration and Customs Enforcement official said.(Watch how workers allegedly got help faking records -- 1:25)

"That is, they were using Social Security numbers of people that were dead, of children or just different individuals that did not work at IFCO," ICE chief Julie Myers told CNN.

"The Social Security Administration had written IFCO over 13 times and told them, 'Listen, You have a problem. You have over a thousand employees that have faulty Social Security numbers. And we consider that to be a big problem,'" said Myers. "And IFCO did not do anything about it."

A yearlong investigation revealed that IFCO managers had induced illegal aliens to work there, telling some to doctor W-2 tax forms and others that no documentation was needed at all, Myers said.


Hope all is well Mario. Good luck with finals


Things are good, James. But please don't mention finals, lol. I don't want to think about them at all.

But good luck on yours as well. Mine aren't for three weeks. You probably finish classes soon. I have another month to this semester.

Take care.

[cameron]

Most of them don't love this country.

Sorry but that does not jive with my own personal experience.

As for shipping the 11 million that are estimated to be here already shipping them home is not feasable and isn't going to happen no matter what anyone says or feels about it. Seal the border that is something everyone can agree on.

[FightingFalcon]

*phew* ok a lot to respond to

"Right! Blame the US. THEY broke the law. All I'm saying is enforce the law."

I'm all for enforcing the law from now on.

"Bullshit! You're not going to suffer anything. And all 11 million of them are certaily NOT working."

Sure. *I* am not going to suffer anything - but the economy will. That in turn affects the Republic, which is all that I care about.

"She already told you how to solve it. No more birthright citizenship unless at least one parent is a legal resident."

Would that count for those here on a guest worker program?

"Nonsense, cut off the jobs and the entitlements and they'll self-deport. "

Good luck policing every single corporation in America. Notwithstanding the Fascist aspects of checking up on every corporation to ensure that they are employing people whom you approve of, it's a waste of manpower.

"Also please note the decline in frequency of suicide bombings in Israel since the wall was erected."

Just wait until the wall is finished and Jerusalem is put firmly on the Israeli side. Then we'll see how many suicide bombs go off.

"To the nearest border with their home country, over the line and out you go."

So much for compassionate conservatism. What you propose is pure evil, 101.

"Following that ;ogic, perhaps we should reinstitute slavery?"

If someone volunteered for it? Who are you to say otherwise....

"The Mexican flags were everywhere"

Guess you've never seen a St. Patrick's Day parade.

You can have loyalty to more than one country.

[FightingFalcon]

"I agree with 101, at the first contact with police immigration status should be checked and if found to be here illegally, either by illegal entry as from Mexico or by expired visa, shipped home pronto."

Shipped home...as if it's so easy.