Ya'll are probably going to hate me...

[jfree]

FF here is some more information on what the costs can be for allowing these illegals to come and stay.

Democrats Get to His Right on Immigration?
by Phyllis Schlafly
Posted Aug 24, 2005

humaneventsonline.com

Two Democratic Governors, Bill Richardson of New Mexico and Janet Napolitano of Arizona, have declared a state of emergency and asked for federal help to deal with the costs of the violence and property damage caused by illegal aliens coming over their southern borders. If President Bush lets these partisan Democrats get to the right of him on the immigration issue, all Republicans will suffer in the next election.

Dr. Madeleine Cosman, Esq. is a national authority on the diseases brought into our country by illegal aliens, who of course are not given health examinations required of all legal immigrants. Apparently, some people would like to prevent her from presenting her message to the public.

Along with Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-CO) and several California public officials, she was scheduled to speak at the Carlsbad Cultural Center on August 11 in a forum called Defense of Our Nation Begins at Our Borders. The facility broke its contract for the event because of threats from illegal-alien activists, and only a timely lawsuit persuaded the Center to allow the event to take place.

The anti-free-speech activists didn't go away quietly. About 200 loud, bullhorn-shouting protesters, mostly Hispanic and some Muslims in headscarves or burkas, did their best to disrupt the meeting and scare the attendees. It took 250 police officers in full gear with face shields and automatic weapons, plus SWAT team members in black tank-like vehicles, to keep the demonstrators at bay.

The message Dr. Cosman delivered to a standing-room only crowd should be heard by all Americans. She spoke about the 84 California hospitals that closed between 1994 and 2003 because EMTALA, the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act, requires every emergency room to treat every patient coming with an "emergency" (including childbirth) even if unable to pay and even if illegally in the United States.

The law is tough; hospitals and doctors are fined up to $50,000 for refusing to treat. This unfunded federal mandate has caused dozens of hospitals to go bankrupt.

Dr. Cosman, who is both a Ph.D. and a lawyer, described the infectious diseases now spreading across the United States. Contagious diseases that our country wiped out years ago, such as malaria, polio, tuberculosis, and hepatitis, and rare diseases of Third World poverty such as leprosy, Chagas Disease, and Dengue Fever, are coming in.

The Centers for Disease Control reported 38,291 California cases of tuberculosis that included Multiple Drug Resistant Tuberculosis, which is 60 percent fatal and for which treatment costs $200,000 to $1,200,000 per patient. Illegal aliens are also bringing in syphilis and gonorrhea.

It is a mystery to those of us in heartland America what President Bush must be thinking of when he continues to push for his unpopular guest-worker/amnesty plan to allow millions of illegal aliens in our country to stay here without punishment, and to invite millions more "willing workers" to come on in. How many "willing workers" do you think there are in the rest of the world?

The Pew Hispanic Center has just provided us with a clue. A Pew survey in May of migration attitudes in 120 locations in Mexico showed that 46 percent of Mexicans (that means 49 million people) said they would live in the United States if they had the opportunity, and two out of ten are willing to come here illegally.

Maybe the reason the Bush Administration is so out of touch with reality on this issue is that, for five years, the opinion survey mailed out by the Republican Party to millions of potential donors pretended that the illegal-alien issue doesn't exist. I complained about this over two years ago when the survey included only one question on immigration out of 54.

We've made some progress; the latest Republican survey contains eight questions on immigration out of 57. But this issue still is not included in the sections on the Economy (even though illegal aliens working in the underground economy are avoiding taxes and depressing wages for Americans), or Social Security (even though Bush is still pressing for his Totalization plan to put illegal aliens in our Social Security system), or Education (even though the taxpayers are suffering a tremendous tax burden to educate illegal aliens).

The Republican Party's survey still avoids asking us our opinion about the Kennedy Diversity Visa Lottery that admits 50,000 aliens a year mostly from non-Western countries, or the tremendous costs to the taxpayers from giving illegal aliens free medical care or in-state college tuition rates, or the need to close our borders to contagious diseases and illegal drugs, or the need to inspect all the Mexican trucks that a NAFTA tribunal ordered us to admit into the United States, or the racket of smuggling very-pregnant aliens into our country so they can give birth to their babies in the U.S., or the use of foreign-language ballots (which is ridiculous since the ability to read English is a requirement to become a citizen and only citizens are supposed to vote).

[bounce]

Two Democratic Governors, Bill Richardson of New Mexico and Janet Napolitano of Arizona, have declared a state of emergency and asked for federal help to deal with the costs of the violence and property damage caused by illegal aliens coming over their southern borders. If President Bush lets these partisan Democrats get to the right of him on the immigration issue, all Republicans will suffer in the next election.

While Richardson DID declare a State of Emergency, he didn't do SHIT to back it up other than show up to an ILLEGALS rally in Santa Fe and proclaim that they have RIGHTS HERE!

He barred the State Police from nabbing them as long as they committed NO OTHER CRIME than being here.

That guy is such an IDIOT! I can't stand him!

I agree that Bush is completely out of this solar system when it comes to this issue. I'm getting to where I can't stand him either.

[jfree]

Me too bounce, Bush is starting to piss off his base supporters.

He is turning out to be a RINO

[AmericanPride]

It won't matter.

Bush can't be in office for much longer.

Then it's the circus all over again.

[sgt0311usmc]

FF,

First, thanks for giving me (us) a chance to see these points & respond. I've taken a while because I actually wanted to give this thought. Unfortunately, I don't know that I have anything effective for you ... Some of this would take you simply opening your mind & giving it fair consideration; some would take you doing a little research to prove or disprove my assertions. Also, partially because to actually discuss each of these in detail, point & counter-point would take a lot of time & space here. This is because I'm not here to trade blows with you like you're one of the idiots on THC. My goal is to actually reach you. But, here's a shot ...

fightingfalcon said:

My main points in order of importance:

1) My biggest point is the economic loss suffered by the deportation of millions of workers. I am afraid that this is an economic crisis that the Republic will not be able to quickly recover from - if we can recover at all. Ultimately I only care about the Republic and I think that deporting all of these people would economically hurt us unnecessarily.

First - good call, as the economy is one of the 3 things that can sink a nation.

Here I would say that some research is needed, if logic won't work. I'd love to be able to roll out the numbers, but - Frankly, I'm not going to do this research. Let's say that they all left in one day - a month from now. YES - there would be an impact. Many construction developments would slam to a halt. Farms - hey, it's spring, so how many farms are actually working them right now? (Yes, I'm aware of winter crops down south - I grew up farming). Service industries (housekeeping, dishwashers, busboys, etc) would lose a lot of people. You've seen the lists of breakdowns of where they work. YES - there would be an impact on those industries.

Then what would happen?
FIRST: Remember that there is still approx 5% unemployment in this country;
Second: There are still a lot of low-wage people LOOKING for additional employment opportunities;
A) Those people that left the service industries would be replaced by people getting better pay. Some for pennies more, some for $$/hr more. It's a fact of life - the hotels, and the restaurants will not, for the most part, close. They will find replacements, and the remaining staff will get overtime. That's how it works in business. They CAN'T AFFORD to close & will make the necessary adjustments.
B) The 3 industries that will receive a serious, concentrated blow, are the farms (just the ones the illegals work), the meat/chicken businesses & the home construction industries. So, what will happen? Again, there'll be a hiccup (maybe a beer-belch), BUT, prices will rise some, then they'll hire people to back-fill. As the supply increases (and, eventually, LEGAL immigrants/guest workers start to return), prices will drop again. It's like any other economic adjustment.

Meanwhile, keep in mind that they're not in every one of those places. The industries mentioned will NOT come to a halt. The reality is that there'll be SOME balance to that. The prices of the new surplus of building supplies will drop, resulting in a reduction of prices for homes by builders who HAVE been within the law. The beef & chicken industries will increase their prices - because they can. Some plant-foods will increase, some will stay the same. There'll also be a temporary ripple in the transportation (trucking) industries.

BUT - here's a parallel. Are you aware that they're banning salmon fishing on the pacific coast this year? This is because, although estimates are that ALL salmon (count) is the same, there's a low-count for NATIVE (vs hatchery) salmon. What that means is - 2900 boats, that make their annual income from catching salmon, will make nothing this year. It's estimated that most will sell their boats for living money. By the way - that's about 5-75 families PER BOAT. Additionally, all of the cannery employees who do the same, will again, have no income this year.

Next year - when the salmon numbers are back up - who's going to fish them, and can them? The japanese - that's who. And they'll sell us our own fish. That's one industry that WON'T recover (at least not for years).

MEANWHILE - what's the upside? First, and immediatly, all those jobs will transfer over to TAXPAYERS. Second, the unemployment numbers may drop to the lowest point they've ever been. Let's look at all the additional costs to the taxpayers that these people placed onto the system - the extra law enforcement, hospitals closing, schools overloaded. If you made all those people "legals" suddenly, you don't think that they'd actually start paying their bills & taxes, do you? There's also the issue of them improting deseases that we wiped out in the US years ago. TB, Malaria and other diseases that we defeated decades ago, are on the rise again - now WE'RE having to import drugs for them. AND, it's not just them getting it. Police, hospital workers, plant co-workers, cab drivers - all are catching these from undiagnosed illegals.

AND, there'd be an immediate reduction in overall demand for those (overstressed) services - allowing them to use some of the re-couped $$ to repair, or upgrade infrastructure & personnel. YES - it's not just about getting the $$ coming in or freed up (as might be argued for simply legalizing them) - it's also about giving overworked .... "machines" ... a break for service & repair. Rent the Samuel L Jackson movie "187" to see what the facilities look like in the heavily illegal school districts - then imagine all that money freed up to fix the main school. And, lets not forget the sudden drop in in the flow of drugs, in crimes, and uninsured vehicle accidents.

In the end, although there'd certainly be short-term economic hits, not only would it be a boon to the legal citizens, but it would be a net-positive for the US economy.

fightingfalcon said:

2) *Note that this is second on the list* The inhumanity surrounding the deportation of 11 million people. What if they have no family left in Mexico? What if they have no money? Do we honestly just tell them "best of luck" and kick them off a bus? I could never live with myself if my country honestly did that.

Like others, I have to contest this assertion (inhumanity). It looks like we ain't going to deport them all anyway, but, assuming that we did. First, I guaruntee you that they'll be going down there (or wherever) with $$ in their pockets, and food & possesions in their cars & trucks. Because - if they're smart, when they see the wind shift - they'll load up & leave. Those that get nabbed initially - their esse's will help them, sending & bringing stuff out. Meanwhile, they came here with whatever was in their pockets.

These are NOT political refugees, if they were, they would have applied under the system. So let's not get into that.

And, as for the general morality of giving them the boot (however it's done) - it happens every day. Illegals get caught, and deported, every day. The fact that there's 12 million is incidental. If you break into someone's home, the longer you stay, the more your chances of getting caught increase. They KNEW what they were doing, before they came here. NOW, when it comes to living back home; Merceditas makes an excellent point.

Either these people are ARE industrious, hard-working & honest at heart; or they're lazy, shiftless, opportunistic cheats. Certainly there's enough of them in the gangs, runnuning drugs & fighting in the streets that proves they have the will & ability to fight. And, they've already shown their ability to organize & march in contempt of the law. So, IF a block of 7 MILLION of them is suddenly displaced down to their homeland, which is wretched ONLY because of the corruption of their own elected officials, police & military, what will they do? They had the nerve to march against US, will they have the nerve to correct THEIR OWN country? Or, will they sit back & wait for the next opportunity to sneak back into OUR house?

fightingfalcon said:

3) A permanent solution needs to be found. Making the Mexican-American border the modern-day equivalent of the Iron Curtain is not the answer. Are we going to start murdering people for trying to come over? Again, I would never be able to live with my country if we did that. What if people honestly started to try and go around our wall? Would we really murder people in cold-blood?

First - it's not a "berlin wall" - that was meant to keep people IN against their will. This is OUR country. OUR FIRST responsibility is to defend our borders. If it is being attacked along a 1700 mile front, then we HAVE to have an effective barrier - we CAN'T station an entire division permanently along our border. So, we need an effective barrier that both dissuades people from attempting to go over it; and detects/delays those that would, long enough for the border troops to intercept them.

Here's a thought for you - the less capable the barrier is, the more likely it is that people are going to die. Whether from an ill-planned & under-supplied attempt; or from a mistake by the border guards/patrol.

As for shooting people that attempt to come over - have they done that yet? No. We're not talking about changing the "deadly force" rules. We're talking about an effective barrier.

Aside from that, again, we get a second benefit. Not only have we removed drug infrastructure, but we're also cutting a supply route & courriors. Right now, in the drug war, mehico is OUR ho-chi-minh trail. It's time to cut it.

fightingfalcon said:

A program that has both the support of the American and Mexican governments can work. One that allows millions of workers to easily come into this country to provide needed labor. It's a win-win solution for everyone involved.

Those are my basic points.

Mexico is currently a morass of corruption. THAT was the first place (as predicted by Ross Perot) that a huge number of jobs fled to under NAFTA. LITERALY just over the border in many cases. Meanwhile, their politicians, police & military are hip deep in corruption & up to their ears in incompetency. Fox has even DEMANDED that we let his people in, and that they're heros for sneaking in, and sending $$ back. Why do you think that they have military units running resupply stations right near the border. Tying our border personnel up with wetbacks also acts as a diversion from them patrolling for drug-runners. And their corrupt officials get more $$ faster from the drug runs.

You might not remember, but, the Phillipinos & some south American countries overthrew THEIR corrupt governments & are now democracies. The BEST solution would be for them (the illegals) to retake their own government, and FIX their country. But, failing that, the next best would be them following the rules. There's already plenty of opportunity (as doug has laid out) for them to come over legally - but WE aren't responsible to take them ALL in. And, with the improvement in wages from the break - EVRYONE will be better off.

When you think about all these signs & claims that they're going to "take back the land that is theirs" (aside from the fact that it's a lie); don't you find it interesting, at the least, that they make this claim, while fleeing their REAL homeland - NOT because of overpopulation (hell, huge arable areas of mehico are currently unused), but because they want to walk into someplace THAT SOMEONE ELSE ALREADY DID ALL THE WORK ON, and take THAT. So, I wouldn't be TOO idealistic about their intentions.

Now, I don't know if some recent revelation, or outside belief or source is giving you input along the lines of these 3 issues. I'm not psychic, but, you seem dead set, and these seem to be reasons "after the choice" to take a position. I can understand a lack of knowledge about the long-term economic results to our country (which seems strange in the face of the evidence to the contrary that you've received here & at THC) - because, even if you were an econ major, you still have to live & function in the business world for a while to start seeing motivators & reactions. I'm not talking down to you, we all think we understand things that later, we realize that we didn't really.

How many of us here can make the same statement of self-worth that bounce has - and succesfully back it up?

But #2 & #3 & the coda seem to incredibly naive coming from you - based on your posts that I've read of yours. Yes, people are speaking passionately about "throw them into cattle-cars & toss them over the fence"; but, of-course it's ridiculous - and logistically impossible. AND, no politician would be able to pull it off, anyway (except a ballsy guy like sheriff Joe). THAT'S WHY people are responding passionately - because they ... no - WE KNOW that it won't get done right. And, all the talk about death - if they return down there, or trying to re-jump the border - I don't even know where THAT could have come from. For starters, mehico ain't sub-saharan africa.

If you DO have an outside influence on your decision - that's your choice. I know that much of the catholic church has taken an amnesty stand - and that's just one more issue that I have with them. But, if you've accepted that guidance from someone like that, then, I understand, and that's that. I can disagree with you & fight them, without disrespecting either.

CORRECTION - "disrespecting" is NOT a word. You don't conjugate a noun.

But, if you've accepted that guidance from someone like that, then, I understand, and that's that. I can disagree with you & fight them, without BEING DISRESPECTFUL TO either OF YOU.

[jfree]

Here is the estimated cost of illegal immigration to the government from the center for Immigration Studies
www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html#Complex

The High Cost of Cheap Labor
Illegal Immigration and the Federal Budget

Executive Summary


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion.

Among the findings:

Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.


Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).


With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.


On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.


Many of the costs associated with illegals are due to their American-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth. Thus, greater efforts at barring illegals from federal programs will not reduce costs because their citizen children can continue to access them.


If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion.


Costs increase dramatically because unskilled immigrants with legal status -- what most illegal aliens would become -- can access government programs, but still tend to make very modest tax payments.


Although legalization would increase average tax payments by 77 percent, average costs would rise by 118 percent.


The fact that legal immigrants with few years of schooling are a large fiscal drain does not mean that legal immigrants overall are a net drain -- many legal immigrants are highly skilled.


The vast majority of illegals hold jobs. Thus the fiscal deficit they create for the federal government is not the result of an unwillingness to work.


The results of this study are consistent with a 1997 study by the National Research Council, which also found that immigrants' education level is a key determinant of their fiscal impact.

[Merceditas]

bounce said:

Here here, Merceditas!!!!!!!!!!

Damn straight!

oh! LOL! Thanks! Finally noticed this. I need all the kudos I can get. Now can you please tell my husband I get it right sometimes?

[sgt0311usmc]

merceditas said:

bounce said:

Here here, Merceditas!!!!!!!!!!

Damn straight!

oh! LOL! Thanks! Finally noticed this. I need all the kudos I can get. Now can you please tell my husband I get it right sometimes?

GO-ONNNN - You're cool-beans, GF!! ;D

[FightingFalcon]

Sgt - wow....quite the post.

I'll have to digest it and respond some time next week. I'm finishing up for the semester here right now and I'll be without internet access over the next few days.

[sgt0311usmc]

fightingfalcon said:

Sgt - wow....quite the post.

I'll have to digest it and respond some time next week. I'm finishing up for the semester here right now and I'll be without internet access over the next few days.

RULE # 1 - Grades before Playtime - Glucks Du!

[bounce]

merceditas said:

bounce said:

Here here, Merceditas!!!!!!!!!!

Damn straight!

oh! LOL! Thanks! Finally noticed this. I need all the kudos I can get. Now can you please tell my husband I get it right sometimes?

If the illegals left a great weight would be lifted from our economy!

Crime would go down, our classrooms wouldn't be nearly so overcrowded, traffic would be greatly reduced, the price of gas would go down (because we'd immediately increase supply drastically), there would be plenty of summer work for any high school or college kid who wanted it (at damn good wages). There wouldn't be much of a need for the minimum wage anymore when someone can make $25 an hour for picking lettuce (the labor market would find a new equilibrium somewhere). We'd bring in a shit-load more in taxes as these LEGAL employees started paying.

The illegals aren't here to help us. They're here to drain us dry. They don't have to pay for their health care or their kids' education. Many have found their way onto our welfare roles. At the same time, they send as much money back to Mexico every week as they can.

What kind of sense does it make to let them convince us that we NEED THEM? WE DO NOT! Yet some idiots in this country seem to think they're a great deal for our economy as we close one hospital after another, build one new school after another and pay more for gas.

If I could wave a magic wand and have them disappear today, I'd damn sure do it.