Ya'll are probably going to hate me...

[dstauffer]

FF -

Perhaps you should ask yourself why did your family emigrate to America? Chances are, they -- like many others -- wanted a better life for themselves and their family. To that end, your family legally emigrated to America, became American citizens and led productive, fufilling lives. That is what America is all about.

Now, take that same question and apply towards the approximate 11 million illegal aliens in America today; do they really want the same?

Chances are, there are quite a few who sincerely do want to become Americans and illegaly came to America out of desperation -- unable to gain legal entry for a variety of reasons. The majority of illegal aliens (regardless of race, color, or creed), however, do not want American citizenship: with citizenship comes repsonsibilities. This majority of illegal aliens want all of the privileges America has to offer without accepting the responsibilities such as paying taxes, obeying established laws, and integrating themselves within American society -- while retaining pride in their heritage.

Proof of this was readily displayed during the first set of demonstrations: the slogans being chanted; the signs displayed; and the prevalent display of various flags from Latin America -- their true message was clear for all to see. That message is what triggered the backlash and the organizers of yesterday's events shrewdly steered the focus of the issue from illegal immigration to just immigration -- part of their tactic was to inject racism into the issue. To some degree, the tactic worked.

Unlike your family and mine, these illegal aliens (the majority of whom are from Latin America) do not wish to integrate into our society, but are, instead, demanding that our society cater to them: their culture, their language; and their needs (which they erroneously perceive to be their "rights").

Allow me to give you an example:

Today, within the Western United States, all local, state, regional, and federal government offices are bilingual -- Spanish and English. In Romania, all government offices use Romanian. Should I decide to become a Romanian citizen (given that I am married to a Romanian and have a home in Bucharest), I would naturally be required to integrate myself within Romanian society: learn the language; obey the laws; and respect Romanian culture. It is inconceivable of me to demand that Romania bend to my will.

Now, if I can readily see what my responsibilities are should I decide to become a Romanian citizen, why can't those illegal aliens do the same?

You say that you are immensely proud of your heritage -- which is great -- and you are proud to be an American -- which is also great. Now, let me ask you these questions: Do you speak Italian or Gaelic? Are either of those your primary language? Do you make demands of the government to include either of those languages in their operations? Do you redress the government to offically recognize the contributions Irish and Italians made to the United States? A few of those questions are pretty ridiculous, arent' they? Perhaps they are, but they also should give you some insight.

Your family, like mine, didn't make such demands on the government either: they knew what was expected of them, accepted their responsibilities, and became proud American citizens. Why can't these illegal aliens do the same? In fact, my wife has already begun studying so she can become an American citizen someday -- and she is quite anxious about it, too!

For the record: both sets of my grandparents emigrated to the United States between the 1890s (my father's grandparents came from Germany and Switzerland) and the early 1900s (my mother's parents came from Sicily around 1918).

A person should always be proud of their heritage but mindful of their citizenship.

[FightingFalcon]

I understand what everyone is saying in terms of Latinos refusing to integrate into our culture - it bothers me as well. It annoys me that when I go to certain parts of New York City, no one speaks English. It annoys me that I have to adapt to them as opposed to the other way around.

But I fail to see what any of this has to do with solving the illegal immigration problem. That is a problem that occurs AFTER they get into this country - I'm talking about what to do with these people when they want to come here.

How do you plan to solve the problem of immigrants not integrating into our country? Forcing them to learn English and become Americans before they even get to this country? What you are talking about has nothing to do with the issue at hand. If you want to force immigrants to go to school and learn English, fine. If you want to force all immigrants to learn English, fine. Do whatever the hell you want with them when they come to this country, just so long as you respect their rights.

But this non-integration argument has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. You want to deny the right of EVERY Latino to come to this country simply because (seemingly) many of them refuse to integrate into this country. Don't you see how wrong that is? It's pure discrimination and I'll have no part of that.

EDIT: I am not defending the demands of Latinos to have bi-lingual teachers, bi-lingual laws, bi-lingual passports, etc. I am vehemently opposed to them in that aspect. I do not want a country within a country because whenever that happens, civil war is inevitable. I do not want America to become the new Austro-Hungarian Empire.

But you are judging all Latinos based on the actions of some - in addition, it has nothing to do with illegal immigration. I get the point that some Latinos refuse to integrate into the country. What does that have to do with the problem of people dying to get to this country? What does that have to do with companies employing millions of illegals? What does that have to do with our broken immigration program?

A person should always be proud of their heritage but mindful of their citizenship.

While that is very true, you can never make that the law. You can't force someone to love the Republic. You can't kick someone out for not being patriotic. That's a road I definitely do not wish to go down.

[dstauffer]

FF -

The issue is not who they are, but rather what they are doing and how they are doing it: these people are illegally entering the United States ... period.

If my wife can go through the cumbersome process of gaining legal entry into the United States by means of procurring an immigrant visa -- so can these people; if my wife can legally obtain a Permanent Residency Card (a.ka. "green" card) -- so can these people.

Why should the U.S. government grant amnesty to those who illegally gained entry into the United States while making others (such as my step-daughter) wait anywhere from 3-5 years to get an immigrant visa? Is that fair?!

I for one do not care where these illegal aliens come from. If they wish to gain entry into the United States, they must do so legally through our existing laws ... period!

Does the current immigration laws need to be revamped? You bet they do! There is absolutely no reason it should take so long for someone to get an immigrant visa.

Here, for example, is a section from the U.S. Embassy's (in Romania) website covering immigrant visas for family members:

BACKGROUND CONTEXT FOR U.S. IMMIGRANT VISAS:
Immigrants to the United States are divided into two categories: (I) those who may obtain permanent residence status without numerical limitation, and (II) those subject to an annual limitation. The latter category is further divided into
(A) family-based,
(B) employment-based,
(C) diversity immigrants.

II. LIMITED IMMIGRANTS
Subject to certain transitional laws, immigration into the United States beginning in 1995 will be limited to 675,000 persons per year. That figure is divided into three distinct sub-categories.

A. Family-Based
Preference relatives may receive all of the visas not used by Immediate Relatives, but no less than 226,000 visas per year. Family-based preference categories (with minimum limits in parentheses) include:

1. F1 - Family First Preference: Unmarried sons and daughters of U.S. citizens, and children if any. (23,400)
2. F2 - Family Second Preference: Spouses, children, and unmarried sons and daughters of lawful permanent resident aliens. (114,200)
3. F3 - Family Third Preference: Married sons and daughters of U.S. citizens, and their spouses and children. (23,400)
4. F4 - Family Fourth Preference: Brothers and sisters of U.S. citizens, and their spouses and children, provided the U.S. citizens are over 20. (65,000)

Please note that the above numbers do just pertain to Romania, but reflect the number of immigrant visas issued in these categories worldwide. I should also note that my wife fell into the first category (without numerical limitations) because she is a spouse of an American citizen, of course.

My step-daughter falls into category F2 which means that 114,200 immigrant visas will be issued, worldwide, to people in this category for this year. Now, do you see why it takes so long?!

Let's not even discuss the amount of paperwork that is needed to be granted an immigrant visa or how bureaucratically encumbered the United States Citizenship and Immigration Service (USCIS, formerly the INS) has become.

Here is the section regarding those who wish to gain immigrant visas under the employment-based category:

BACKGROUND CONTEXT FOR U.S. IMMIGRANT VISAS:
Immigrants to the United States are divided into two categories: (I) those who may obtain permanent residence status without numerical limitation, and (II) those subject to an annual limitation. The latter category is further divided into
(A) family-based,
(B) employment-based,
(C) diversity immigrants.

II. LIMITED IMMIGRANTS
Subject to certain transitional laws, immigration into the United States beginning in 1995 will be limited to 675,000 persons per year. That figure is divided into three distinct sub-categories.

B. Employment-Based
A total minimum of 140,000 immigrant visas yearly are available for this category which is divided into five preference groups (percent of yearly limit):

1. E1 - Priority Workers: Persons of extraordinary ability in the sciences, arts, education, business, or athletics; outstanding professors and researchers; and certain multinational executives and managers (28.6%).
2. E2 - Members of the Professions: Professionals holding advanced degrees, and persons of exceptional ability in the sciences, arts, and business (28.6%).
3. E3 - Professionals, Skilled and Unskilled Workers: Professionals holding baccalaureate degrees, skilled workers with at least two years experience, and other workers whose skills are in short supply in the United States (28.6%).
4. E4 - Special Immigrants: Certain religious workers, ministers of religion, certain international organization employees and their immediate family members, and qualified, recommended current and former U.S. Government employees. (7.1%).
5. E5 - Investors: Persons who create employment for at least ten unrelated persons by investing capital in a new commercial enterprise in the United States. The minimum capital required is between $500,000 and $1,000,000, depending on the employment rate in the geographic area (7.1%)

Here is a the section regarding those who wish to gain immigrant visas under the diversity immigrants category:

BACKGROUND CONTEXT FOR U.S. IMMIGRANT VISAS:
Immigrants to the United States are divided into two categories: (I) those who may obtain permanent residence status without numerical limitation, and (II) those subject to an annual limitation. The latter category is further divided into
(A) family-based,
(B) employment-based,
(C) diversity immigrants.

II. LIMITED IMMIGRANTS
Subject to certain transitional laws, immigration into the United States beginning in 1995 will be limited to 675,000 persons per year. That figure is divided into three distinct sub-categories.

C. Diversity Immigrant Visa Lottery
The Diversity Lottery makes available a maximum of 55,000 immigrant visa numbers annually to persons selected at random from countries with low rates of immigration to the United States. There is a separate registration for each year's visas.

This section, the Diversity Immigrant Visa Lottery, is how an immigrant with no family or business connections within the United States would legally obtain an immigrant visa. As you can see, only 55,000 such immigrant visas are granted every year -- worldwide!

This is the current state of the immigration policies of the United States.

[FightingFalcon]

So we both agree that it takes way too long to get into this country.

I further believe that there needs to be something in between a visa and citizenship. Something that allows you to come into this country quickly and work, legally, for a company.

I am not talking about amnesty. I am not talking about granting citizenship to the illegals already here. I would give illegal immigrants temporary legal status but remind them that permanent status would only be acquired through normal channels.

What I do not favor is deporting illegal immigrants - its impractical and inhumane.

I agree that the current situation is unfair and that illegal immigrants shouldn't get citizenship ahead of anyone else. I also understand, however, why people are dying every day to come to this country. While that isn't really any of our concern, we have to realize that if people are willing to sacrifice everything in order to come here, a little jail time won't mean crap.

While in an IDEAL world everyone would wait their turn in line, we don't live in an ideal world. We must operate in the world that we have been given. The reality is that we need them and they want us. So let's make it work.

EDIT: Again, if someone could explain to me where the "integration" problem fits in here, I'd greatly appreciate it. It has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about.

[Far Rider]

I would give illegal immigrants temporary legal status but remind them that permanent status would only be acquired through normal channels.

And you think deporting them is impractical? Well, keeping track of them is going to be a real breeze, isn't it? It's worked so far, hasn't it?

What I do not favor is deporting illegal immigrants - its impractical and inhumane.

I don't suppose you favor throwing lawbreakers in jail, either. Impractical and inhumane.

While in an IDEAL world everyone would wait their turn in line, we don't live in an ideal world.

And we're not going to get any closer to the ideal world by not striving for it, either.

The reality is that we need them and they want us.

Bullshit. Geraldo Rivera tried to lay that on us last night by saying that "bananas will go to $10 a bunch."

So they do. Then they can keep their fucking bananas until they rot and see what they can get for them then. Maybe they'll get their prices under control legally at that point.

Sneaking illegals in here to make money off of them is ORGANIZED CRIME, it's not a public service. Now tell me how "humane" the exploitation of people who have no education and can't speak the language is.

This is what it has come to - breaking the law is ok with us as long as it suits our purpose, but the rest of you people need to obey the law.

Now just how does that work? How do I know what laws I need to obey and what laws I don't need to obey? It's rapidly getting to the point where people who really DO play by the rules and obey the law will say "the law means nothing to them; it means nothing to me", or, more accurately, "what law do I get to break and slide by with it?"

That's called "anarchy".

After you have explained all that, then ask us about the "integration" problem again.

[FightingFalcon]

"And you think deporting them is impractical? Well, keeping track of them is going to be a real breeze, isn't it? It's worked so far, hasn't it?"

No, which is why the program needs to be changed....

"I don't suppose you favor throwing lawbreakers in jail, either. Impractical and inhumane."

I want to respond so badly to this but it's going to spiral into another one of our classic arguments. All I'm gonna say is that I love hypocrisy. You should know what I'm getting at here.

"And we're not going to get any closer to the ideal world by not striving for it, either. "

So let's just cling to outdated and ineffective laws. It's no surprise that you support the War on Drugs.....

"So they do. Then they can keep their fucking bananas until they rot and see what they can get for them then. Maybe they'll get their prices under control legally at that point."

That's ridiculously ignorant. Go read the WSJ I posted - about how the biggest meat packing plants in the country use around 33-50% immigrant labor. Let's see how well you do with fruits, vegetables and meat. O I forgot - middle-class Americans are dying to do these jobs and would love to work in a meat-packing plant. What BS....

"Sneaking illegals in here to make money off of them is ORGANIZED CRIME, it's not a public service. Now tell me how "humane" the exploitation of people who have no education and can't speak the language is. "

A Libertarian would recognize that if someone VOLUNTEERS for it, then you have no right to say that they can't do it. Funny that once again, on yet another issue, you are in conflict with the LP.

"This is what it has come to - breaking the law is ok with us as long as it suits our purpose, but the rest of you people need to obey the law."

If you were to list your idols/heroes on this board Mike, I bet that every single one of them (or the majority of them), broke the law in order to achieve a goal. For one, Jesus Christ broke both Jewish and Roman laws to achieve His goal. So did people like John Brown and George Washington. Hell, all of our Founding Fathers broke the law. So what? When the law is corrupt and wrong, then people have no choice.

Or are you suddenly going to condemn our Founding Fathers and Jesus Christ?

[MARIO]

So what? When the law is corrupt and wrong, then people have no choice.

James, I'm a little confused here.

You said you support a strong border policy, right?? Tightening the border?

So whose laws are "corrupt and wrong"?

[FightingFalcon]

I'm talking about our immigration policy - to these people, they have no alternative. To them, the required waiting time might be too long and they could end up dead before then.

Am I advocating breaking the law? No, but I can understand where these people are coming from. To them, the law is the least of their concerns. Again, I do not advocate breaking the law in order to get here but I understand why people do. But I would never say that people should break the law. I would like to see them follow the legal path of getting into this country but I understand that something needs to be done to fix the current problem. With people who are willing to die to get here, jail time means nothing.

Mike was referring to me "breaking the law" by allowing illegal immigrants to stay here and be given temporary legal status. To that I say, so what? All of my heroes (e.g. Jesus, MLK Jr., John Brown, George Washington, Cato the Younger) have broken the law in order to achieve a greater good.

[Far Rider]

No, which is why the program needs to be changed....

Not really. When you send them all back or cut off their food supply so they have to go back you can start with a clean slate.

All I'm gonna say is that I love hypocrisy. You should know what I'm getting at here.

I can see that you love hypocrisy - you use it often enough.

So let's just cling to outdated and ineffective laws. It's no surprise that you support the War on Drugs.....

And this has what to do with the price of tea in China?

That's ridiculously ignorant. Go read the WSJ I posted - about how the biggest meat packing plants in the country use around 33-50% immigrant labor. Let's see how well you do with fruits, vegetables and meat. O I forgot - middle-class Americans are dying to do these jobs and would love to work in a meat-packing plant. What BS....

No, THAT'S ridiculously ignorant. When the price of meat gets so high that people quit buying it Tyson will have to do something if they intend to keep selling meat. Ever hear of the phrase: "Pricing yourself out of the market"?

My ex-wife used to work in a meat packing plant, an experience you are no doubt unfamiliar with. She said it was quite an education - the kind you don't get sitting around reading books. I have picked fruit and apples in my own orchard, and when I was a kid, picking vegetables in somebody else's field. That's right - I picked my own damn fruit, and to this day I still cut my own damn grass. I also worked as a carpenter when I was in college. When I was your age I worked part time ashore washing dishes while off duty from the U.S. Navy. In fact, until I got sick I worked at least two jobs most of my life.

Now, you want to run that bullshit about Americans not wanting to work by me one more time? There may even be some generation wasted loaders who want to work for a living - I'll bet there are. Not every American is as spoiled as you are.

You make it sound like cutting meat and picking crops is some kind of menial labor, beneath you, and only suitable for lower forms of life, like Mexicans.

Don't make the mistake of thinking your white guilt and inverted racism is going to fool me, boy. If you want to "let them eat cake", then you can let them eat YOUR cake, not mine. I have already paid my dues in life - you haven't.

A Libertarian would recognize that if someone VOLUNTEERS for it, then you have no right to say that they can't do it. Funny that once again, on yet another issue, you are in conflict with the LP.

Well, sorry I am not marching in lockstep with you on this, but as unique as it may sound to you, I do have a mind of my own. You might try looking something up on philosophical libertarianism (besides John Locke).

For one, Jesus Christ broke both Jewish and Roman laws to achieve His goal.

You are a fool.

In the first place, Jesus was railroaded by the Jews. Pilate didn't find any fault with Him.

Jesus was all about following the law - it was recorded over and over again.

[Far Rider]

Mike was referring to me "breaking the law" by allowing illegal immigrants to stay here and be given temporary legal status.

What I was referring to is them being here in the first place.

[FightingFalcon]

"Not really. When you send them all back or cut off their food supply so they have to go back you can start with a clean slate."

Send them back. Just kick em off a bus and say "good luck". Yep - that's good old compassionate conservatism at work.

"I can see that you love hypocrisy - you use it often enough."

And you're using it right now. Go lecture some more about Jesus while at the same time telling 11 million people to go fuck off.

"In fact, until I got sick I worked at least two jobs most of my life."

Funny, cause right now I have three jobs.

"Not every American is as spoiled as you are. "

Hahaha spoiled. Listen up old timer - everything I have is mine. I earned it. College education? The Air Force is paying for it. Motorcycle? All my money - my parents refuse to partake in it. The only thing I haven't paid for is the house that my parents provide for me. But I'm sure that at one point in your life you lived with your parents. So don't give me that fucking BS. I've been working since I was 13 years old and have never stopped since. I work two jobs in addition to being a full-time student and an ROTC cadet. Normally I don't bring this shit up but then again I'm not usually challenged by people who have no idea what they're talking about.

I'm very glad that you worked hard as a young person. But don't make the mistake of thinking that you were the only person to have ever lived that did so. So take your spoiled BS and shove it....

"Well, sorry I am not marching in lockstep with you on this, but as unique as it may sound to you, I do have a mind of my own. You might try looking something up on philosophical libertarianism (besides John Locke)."

You're right, I don't have a mind of my own - yet I hold some of the most radical beliefs of any poster on THC. How'd you figure me out, Mike?

Secondly, is something wrong with Locke? Even still, he isn't the most influential thinker in my life. That would be a tie between Jesus and Adam Smith.

[Far Rider]

Send them back. Just kick em off a bus and say "good luck". Yep - that's good old compassionate conservatism at work.

Good old self preservation at work. It's not bad enough that I have to try to protect my country from the looney left, now I have to worry about terrorists and anarchists coming in through a border like a sponge while self appointed protectors of the Constitution like you make apologies for them? I don't think so.

Go lecture some more about Jesus while at the same time telling 11 million people to go fuck off.

It's you I'm telling to fuck off. As for the illegals, they can render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar and submit to the authorities. Your theology is as bad as Harry Holer's.

And let me tell you something else, assclown: the ONLY reason I am not an anarchist myself is because I believe in what Jesus said, because I sure as hell don't have any respect for the government, the people in it, and their horseshit laws anymore.

And trust me: you don't want people like me to get so jaded that WE don't think we need to preserve law and order because if we start acting up it will be your worst nightmare.

Funny, cause right now I have three jobs.

Yeah, I can see how much time you don't have to argue with me.

Hahaha spoiled. Listen up old timer - everything I have is mine. I earned it. College education? The Air Force is paying for it. Motorcycle? All my money - my parents refuse to partake in it. The only thing I haven't paid for is the house that my parents provide for me.

So let me get this straight: You are entirely self reliant because although your parents put a roof over your head and the USAF pays for your schooling, you managed to buy a motorcycle?

It must be nice to be independently wealthy. How DO you do it?

But I'm sure that at one point in your life you lived with your parents.

Yes, until the last one died when I was 16. After that I worked a full time job at night (doing the kind of jobs Americans won't do) and went to HIGH SCHOOL. I had some rocky times with my step father at that point and was obliged to be on my own.

I'm very glad that you worked hard as a young person.

The point was that that that bullshit about Mexicans doing the jobs Americans won't do is just that - bullshit. I did that kind of work. So did my wife. What do you do? Deliver pizzas?

You're right, I don't have a mind of my own - yet I hold some of the most radical beliefs of any poster on THC. How'd you figure me out, Mike?

Well, you're hell on straw man arguments, I'll give you that.

Secondly, is something wrong with Locke?

Yeah, he isn't my favorite thinker. Is that a problem for you?

[sgt0311usmc]

FF

That is a problem that occurs AFTER they get into this country - I'm talking about what to do with these people when they want to come here.

There's already laws & quotas governing this. The quota numbers vary each year (total, and by country of origin) are determined by the Treasury Dep't, Justice, State, CIA, etc. There's a LOT of factors that go into the determination. But, one of the most important is - OUR OWN ECONOMY. If we just open our borders, we'd quickly be swamped. As has been pointed out numerous times, look at how many of our services have been run into the ground & otherwise overwhelmed. You notice how you've heard all the whining about the cost of health care for the last 10 years? Wonder how the H/C system would be fairing if we cut 12-20 million freeloaders out of the system. By the way - this (reducing immigracy demand) is also why we send so many of our tax dollars & advisors overseas - (supposedly) so that maybe they could learn to make do for themselves. So, essentially - just like everybody else - they need to wait their turn. Period.

But this non-integration argument has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. You want to deny the right of EVERY Latino to come to this country simply because (seemingly) many of them refuse to integrate into this country. Don't you see how wrong that is? It's pure discrimination and I'll have no part of that.

WRONG - nobody's trying to deny all latinos. The focus is falling onto latinos because they are the vast majority (60%) of the illegals - and they're the ones doing the marching & demanding. They're the ones flooding over our south border every day. THEY turned the light onto themselves. Now the examples that you're being given refer to the latinos because they became the focus. But the crux of the argument is about ALL of the illegals. Drop the race references - it's not about race.

I would give illegal immigrants temporary legal status but remind them that permanent status would only be acquired through normal channels.
That IS amnesty. They've already broken the law just by being here. By the way - if - no WHEN you do something wrong - do you think YOU'RE gonna get a "gimme", since they all do? NO - you're going to be held to the strictest interpretation of the law/UCMJ.[/i]

What I do not favor is deporting illegal immigrants - its impractical and inhumane.
Impractical - maybe (so was the panama canal - but IT got done). Inhumane? No way in hell. Funny how these people grew-up just fine in their own countrys - how is that inhumane? IT'S THEIR COUNTRY. You think that people that grow-up in 3rd-world countrys DON'T grow up learning how to live & function in them? That's like saying that american farmboys don't grow-up learning about farming. Think about it - it's an ENTIRE CONTINENT down there. MAYBE they should start "making" for themselves.

We must operate in the world that we have been given. The reality is that we need them and they want us. So let's make it work.

YEAH - lets start by enforcing the existing laws & building a fence that works. And - it's NOT a berlin wall, no matter how it appears to you.

Again, if someone could explain to me where the "integration" problem fits in here, I'd greatly appreciate it. It has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about.

You have to take it a step at a time. For starters - you ENFORCE THE CITIZENSHIP TEST that requires them to have a basic english comprehension to gain citizenship. THEN, you cut-off funding for all of the bi-lingual government services. We don't require that all hospitals have speakers of Hindi, swahili, khemer, thai, dutch, etc on staff - nor the DMV or anyone else. End the free ride. If you enforce the rules, and stop making exceptions, then they'll HAVE to integrate. (BY THE WAY - It's been the LIBERALS who've DEMANDED that the local, state & fed gov'ts provide the extra bi-lingual services to these people for the last 12 years - essentially rolling out the red-carpet for them. They've also demanded that law-enforcement & the education systems be denied the ability to either investigate, or report illegal aliens they come in contact with.)

I'm talking about our immigration policy - to these people, they have no alternative. To them, the required waiting time might be too long and they could end up dead before then.

I don't know where you got that idea - the latinos ain't being persecuted at home. They're not ALL boat people.

To that I say, so what? All of my heroes (e.g. Jesus, MLK Jr., John Brown, George Washington, Cato the Younger) have broken the law in order to achieve a greater good.

These people ain't Jesus Christ; and there's no "greater good" to be had from the flood of illegals. None. And, BTW - you have about one year (if you believe that your word is your bond) to re-examine that attitude on breaking the law. And YES, I DO believe that you have a requirement to disobey an illegal order - but we have a requirement to obey, or change, the laws of this nation.

Send them back. Just kick em off a bus and say "good luck". Yep - that's good old compassionate conservatism at work.
What "GOOD LUCK"? Second of all, if you woke-up with 100 of them squatting in your yard & home, you'd have a different attitude - and that's what they're doing. They've broken into the house, ate the food, kicked your little sister out of her bed & are now demanding the keys to the car. There's nothing "un-compassionate" about treating a burglar as such. Again - there's at least 7 million latinos - that's enough to FIX their own countries!

Go lecture some more about Jesus while at the same time telling 11 million people to go fuck off.
I must have missed the verse about throwing your family out into the gutter & giving your home to others. Why not apply that same logic to ALL of the people in the world who don't live at the same standard as us. There must be at least a billion of them out there. Where do you draw the line? And yes - if we don't take effective control of this situtation, then our families just MIGHT end up in the gutters.

[FightingFalcon]

"now I have to worry about terrorists and anarchists coming in through a border like a sponge while self appointed protectors of the Constitution like you make apologies for them? I don't think so."

I never said I supported illegal immigration. I'm simply trying to find a humane solution that benefits the Republic. I dare you to find a single quote of mine where I justify illegal immigration.

"because I sure as hell don't have any respect for the government, the people in it, and their horseshit laws anymore. "

So wait - you have no respect for the law? After lecturing me about how the law is sacred and all that BS?

"And trust me: you don't want people like me to get so jaded that WE don't think we need to preserve law and order because if we start acting up it will be your worst nightmare. "

Actually, it would probably be the scenario I hope for the most.

"Yeah, I can see how much time you don't have to argue with me."

Doesn't take much effort on my part.

"It must be nice to be independently wealthy. How DO you do it?"

So because the USAF pays for my schooling, that doesn't count as being financially independent? Shit....I wish I had known that before I woke up every morning at 0400.

"Yes, until the last one died when I was 16. After that I worked a full time job at night (doing the kind of jobs Americans won't do) and went to HIGH SCHOOL. I had some rocky times with my step father at that point and was obliged to be on my own."

I'm sorry to hear that about your parents - I truly am. But don't act like you're the only person in the world who has had a rough time. I would never claim that I have, especially after seeing the living conditions in Third World countries. I think all of us in America have no reason to complain.

"The point was that that that bullshit about Mexicans doing the jobs Americans won't do is just that - bullshit. I did that kind of work. So did my wife. What do you do? Deliver pizzas?"

I don't need to justify myself to you. But no, I didn't deliver pizzas.

"Yeah, he isn't my favorite thinker. Is that a problem for you?"

Why would it? Unlike you, I'm an actual Libertarian - I respect your right to do/think whatever you want so long as you don't interfere with another human being's right to do/think what they want.

[sgt0311usmc]

By the way - one excellent point that CRW made:

On this issue - there are no "lines" - the majority of both sides are in lock-step on this issue

there might be a reason for this