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Post by FightingFalcon on May 2, 2006 17:52:25 GMT -8
By the way - one excellent point that CRW made: On this issue - there are no "lines" - the majority of both sides are in lock-step on this issue there might be a reason for this They're not in lock step. I've been attacked by both sides for supporting immigration reform but for completely different reasons. Conservatives for supporting anarchy and Democrats for supporting evil corporations and the exploitation of workers. On the surface they seem allied but that couldn't be further from the truth. |
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Post by 101ABN on May 2, 2006 18:46:12 GMT -8
"I'm talking about our immigration policy - to these people, they have no alternative. To them, the required waiting time might be too long and they could end up dead before then."
Tough tortillas. Out you go until you can do it the right way.
"What I do not favor is deporting illegal immigrants - its impractical and inhumane."
Bullshit. There are consequnces for breaking the law. Deportation is the appropriate punishment for this crime.
"All of my heroes (e.g. Jesus, MLK Jr., John Brown, George Washington, Cato the Younger) have broken the law in order to achieve a greater good. "
What "greater good" do you think is achieved by allowing the illegals a pass? YOU try breaking the law for some "greater good" and see where it gets you.
"Send them back. Just kick em off a bus and say "good luck". Yep - that's good old compassionate conservatism at work."
Nosir, it's called justice.
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Post by sgt0311usmc on May 2, 2006 23:16:16 GMT -8
I've been attacked by both sides for supporting immigration reform but for completely different reasons. Conservatives for supporting anarchy and Democrats for supporting evil corporations and the exploitation of workers.
I'm not attacking you, but, I will admit that some of the rhetoric has gotten personal.
I agree with both points (maybe not the way they're phrased).
Our country did an amnesty before. Now they're considering it again. Last time it was ... I don't remember, a million or less(?) - this time they're looking at 14-20 Million. What comes next? Yes - anarchy.
The problem exists because both - no - ALL - sides ignored it (including the libertarians, the greens, the hispanics, etc). The fact that the left tries to label it as "big corp's" is a canard. They've fought long & hard for these people to be able to sneak in. Just 7 or 8 years ago they were demogoguing the issue to get the fed & states bi-lingual (Really - spend money making all the government paperwork bi-lingual - does THAT sound republican?)
But, that's off-topic. The business people need to be held to at least the same standard as the illegals. If you make it so that the HR Mgr & The CEO are both liable for huge fines, hit them with RICO charges & lock them up - then they will ensure that it's not done at a lower level.
BUT - the individuals need to be held responsible too. And, as for speeding up the process - it's slow for a reason. Part of that reason is security - TIME to do background checks - in other countries. Part of that reason is that they CAN'T pass the citizenship test without certain citizenship knowledge & skills (i.e. - civics & 8th grade ENGLISH). Another part is the economy. "What can we handle"?
You can say that "well, they're already here" - but, what strains are they already placing on our system? Think about this - One of the things that Clinton (I) ran on was the health-care system. People can't afford it, companies can't afford it, Dr's can't afford the insurance & hospitals are going out of business.
For 15 years - we've been paying for them. And that's just the 15 years that we've finally been addressing A SYMPTOM of the problem. YES, if we just slap the laws into place, and enforce them, they WILL finally be paying taxes. And yes, the growers will have to start paying legal wages. BUIT - we'll STILL hve the load on our system. Do you think that these people will suddenly start paying their hospital bills tomorrow, if they get a green card?
What about this - I was up in MASS on 1 may - they just figured out that they had 169,000 cars with plates & titles that they had no licensed driver assigned to. And what do you think happens if you get hit by one of these unlicensed, uninsured drivers - YOU are the one who's SOL. And YES - the vast majority (90% +) were hispanic names.
So here's another option - YES, send them home. (by whatever mechanism). Want to help them to move along? Let them know that if they register & get out; they get a leg-up on coming back.
START enforcing the laws, including on the employers.
RAID the 46 blocks of LA that are run by MI-13 (as well as their havens in other cities)
END - Anchor babies.
CUT-OFF the freebies - you come to the ER as an illegal - you'll get treated - AFTER you get hand-cuffed. Afterwards - you go to the INS & sent out. (With a hospital bill annotated to your file - you want re-entry, you better have a payment plan).
Adjust state DMV laws - no license (or ID) - no car registration.
NOW - TRUE free-market forces will come into play for the farmers, Tysons & the rest of those industries. Yes, food prices will go up - that's the nature of the beast. What do you think will happen to the unemployment rate? And, after it resolves itself, there'll probably be a surge in the number of LEGALS allowed in.
THIS WAY - not only do we get the taxes that it was time to get anyway, but we unload a HUGE burden off of the health-care system. Once it regains it's footing, then we can plan on how to deal with a controlled, orderly flow (the way it's intended to be).
From what I gather - your main sticking points start from the "inhumanity" of sending them back. After that it's about the mechanics, plausibility of various plans, whether racism is an issue, etc. But the start of it all seems to be that sending them back would be ..... pick your adverb ... uncharitible, inhumane, whatever - right?
I ask because I would like to be able to address the crux of the issue, as you see it. I may not be able to convince you, you might even convince me of something, but - rather than get sidetracked on issues such as "how would you accomplish ...(it)" - I'd like to get to your main sticking point(s).
The rest of the crap is just details. And frankly, they'll work, or not & we'll pay for them either way.
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Post by FightingFalcon on May 2, 2006 23:30:50 GMT -8
Sgt - the rhetoric between Mike and I always gets personal. We've kinda got a history.....
My main points in order of importance:
1) My biggest point is the economic loss suffered by the deportation of millions of workers. I am afraid that this is an economic crisis that the Republic will not be able to quickly recover from - if we can recover at all. Ultimately I only care about the Republic and I think that deporting all of these people would economically hurt us unnecessarily.
2) *Note that this is second on the list* The inhumanity surrounding the deportation of 11 million people. What if they have no family left in Mexico? What if they have no money? Do we honestly just tell them "best of luck" and kick them off a bus? I could never live with myself if my country honestly did that.
3) A permanent solution needs to be found. Making the Mexican-American border the modern-day equivalent of the Iron Curtain is not the answer. Are we going to start murdering people for trying to come over? Again, I would never be able to live with my country if we did that. What if people honestly started to try and go around our wall? Would we really murder people in cold-blood?
A program that has both the support of the American and Mexican governments can work. One that allows millions of workers to easily come into this country to provide needed labor. It's a win-win solution for everyone involved.
Those are my basic points.
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Post by Far Rider on May 3, 2006 1:48:09 GMT -8
Oh, please. Your whole damn attitude reeks of it.
The difference is, I still follow it, in spite of the fact that people like you think that the law exists only for me, apparently.
We'll see what you think if we ever get there, hero.
The lack of effort shows.
Stop, you're breaking my heart. I am a middle aged man with a heart condition who gets up at 5:00 AM to go to work. My buddy with bad knees gets up at 3:00 AM. We both pay the taxes that are paying for your college education. You don't really think the government earned the money it's giving you, do you?
The point was that human beings are not as fragile as you seem to think we are from your limited and lofty viewpoint.
So it is YOU who won't do the work that the illegals do. Don't put the rest of us in your category.
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Post by dustdevil28 on May 3, 2006 2:59:01 GMT -8
2) *Note that this is second on the list* The inhumanity surrounding the deportation of 11 million people. What if they have no family left in Mexico? What if they have no money? Do we honestly just tell them "best of luck" and kick them off a bus? I could never live with myself if my country honestly did that. 3) A permanent solution needs to be found. Making the Mexican-American border the modern-day equivalent of the Iron Curtain is not the answer. Are we going to start murdering people for trying to come over? Again, I would never be able to live with my country if we did that. What if people honestly started to try and go around our wall? Would we really murder people in cold-blood? ..... but I thought I'd address a few points. James, I don't agree with your take on the inhumanity. These are people who knowingly broke the law and are aware of the consequences for those actions. Chances are that they'll go back to Mexico and continue to plot their return to the U.S., or maybe, perhaps maybe they'll start holding their own govt responsible for their declining economy. I'm not sure where you got cold-blooded murder from. Why would anybody advocate that? This is simply putting them back where they came from. |
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Post by FightingFalcon on May 3, 2006 8:15:57 GMT -8
"I'm not sure where you got cold-blooded murder from. Why would anybody advocate that? This is simply putting them back where they came from."
If we built the modern-day equivalent of the Iron Curtain, what would happen when people still tried to come across the border? Would we shoot them in cold blood? We would certainly be the only country in the civilized world to embrace such barbaric tactics.
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pops
First Class Member
Posts: 109
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Post by pops on May 3, 2006 9:29:35 GMT -8
1) My biggest point is the economic loss suffered by the deportation of millions of workers. I am afraid that this is an economic crisis that the Republic will not be able to quickly recover from - if we can recover at all. Ultimately I only care about the Republic and I think that deporting all of these people would economically hurt us unnecessarily. That is based on the assumption that the jobs those being deported are not filled. They will be filled by legals under a guest worker program or by Americans. 2) *Note that this is second on the list* The inhumanity surrounding the deportation of 11 million people. What if they have no family left in Mexico? What if they have no money? Do we honestly just tell them "best of luck" and kick them off a bus? I could never live with myself if my country honestly did that. We cannot reward those that break the law. If it is "inhuman" than so be it. We are not the one who are breaking the law. They have to suffer the consequences of their action. 3) A permanent solution needs to be found. Making the Mexican-American border the modern-day equivalent of the Iron Curtain is not the answer. Are we going to start murdering people for trying to come over? Again, I would never be able to live with my country if we did that. What if people honestly started to try and go around our wall? Would we really murder people in cold-blood? We are (least most of us) are not talking about a modern day Iron Curtain. We hare talking about a fence which restricts entry at known crossing point beefed up with added border patrol personnel. We will not have a shoot on sight policy any more than we do now. This murdering people climbing the fence is a bogus argument. A program that has both the support of the American and Mexican governments can work. One that allows millions of workers to easily come into this country to provide needed labor. It's a win-win solution for everyone involved. Those are my basic points. Why do we, a sovereign nation have to have the support of another country on what we do INSIDE our own country? |
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Post by jfree on May 3, 2006 9:36:06 GMT -8
No one is actually advocating shooting people for crossing the border. That is leftist propaganda and complete nonsense.
FF I am afraid you have been taken for a ride by the liberal media and MECHA. If these who are Mexican would start protesting at home, unite at home, and get to the dang poles at home, they could make Mexico a great place to live. Instead they see an easier path here, and take American jobs, forcing down the pay scale and depressing the middle class. At what cost do we take care of other nations? Do we do so to the detriment of our own people in OUR own lands? No. We can offer help in teaching them how to control their own country and how to get rid of that greasy slime ball Fox who advocates Reconquesta of the Southwest. Who demands America bend over and take it, yet they have barbaric immigration laws in their own land.
My advice to all illegals, leave, go home, why waste your energy here when you could be changing your own lands, helping you peoples throw off oppressive regimes and help all your relatives.
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Post by dustdevil28 on May 3, 2006 14:22:47 GMT -8
If we built the modern-day equivalent of the Iron Curtain, what would happen when people still tried to come across the border? Would we shoot them in cold blood? We would certainly be the only country in the civilized world to embrace such barbaric tactics. Is this why you oppose a the wall? We could always just take them back to Mexico like we do now. Having a wall wouldn't mean that we have to kill anybody. There is nothing about a wall which would make it binding for us to kill anybody. |
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Post by Far Rider on May 3, 2006 15:06:10 GMT -8
It helps to think of me as a right wing Packer.
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Post by 101ABN on May 3, 2006 17:55:55 GMT -8
"If we built the modern-day equivalent of the Iron Curtain..."
Can we stop this? It's pure BULLSHIT! The Iron Curtain existed to KEEP PEOPLE IN!
I'm sorry, FF, Jfree is right on the money. You're buying in to the leftist moonbatshit that passes for coverage on this issue. I think you're going a bit touchy-feely here instead of using your head. The people behind this stuff want to do demographically what they could never do militarily in a thousand years, turn the Southwestern US into Northwestern Mexico.
Love the Republic? Then go to the border and see for yourself.
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Post by Merceditas on May 4, 2006 19:02:15 GMT -8
No one is actually advocating shooting people for crossing the border. That is leftist propaganda and complete nonsense. . um.........I am.  |
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Post by Merceditas on May 4, 2006 19:14:35 GMT -8
This whole discussion has been interesting.
The only thing I'd like to add, which I didn't see mentioned was implications that might be inferred about Mexicans. Since the many of those Mexicans coming into the US seem willing to work they're fully capable of staying in their own country and improving it.
If Mexicans don't improve their own government and their own economy who is going to do it? Or are they incapable of creating country that will fully make it into this century because they are backward? Maybe they are prone to violence, corruption and criminal activity in general? If that's the case, then the US should step in because they're a serious danger to our own country.
NAFTA should have been more than enough, the US can only do so much to help them. If Mexicans would prefer to cross the border to find work and to leach off US taxpayers, instead of working in their own country we will never see any improvement in Mexico. It will only encourage them to desert their country.
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Post by bounce on May 4, 2006 19:38:19 GMT -8
Here here, Merceditas!!!!!!!!!!
Damn straight!
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